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Graziano
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Free Sparriing in Karate

Hello to everyone, I have got a question for you.

Was there the Free sparring Jiu kumite, on traditional okinawa karate?

Many says the jiu kumite is a modern thing created when the karate is emigrated to the japan and associated it to the competition, but I Think who in a real street fighting you don't know your opponent, and how will he attack to you, all is unpredictable. Somebody says who there was the bogu kumite, somebody says who the traditional training it was the kata, and only kata???

Wastelander
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What we know as jiyu kumite, today, is a quite recent innovation from mainland Japan, which was largely based on the way they compete in kendo and has very little in common with the way Okinawan karate was intended to function. Around the same time that was being developed on Japan, bogu kumite was becoming popular on Okinawa. That said, bogu kumite was also a relatively new creation at the time. Classical Okinawan pressure testing was done through kakedameshi and tegumi, both of which have been described in book by Funakoshi Gichin and Nagamine Shoshin. The gist of kakedameshi is that is was, essentially, full-contact pushing hands with strikes, locks, and takedowns. Tegumi, on the other hand, was folkstyle submission wrestling.

Iain Abernethy
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If you mean was there competition style sparring, then no because that had not been invented yet. There was definitely live practise though. Funakoshi talks about grappling to submission or unconsciousness, and the live escaping drills against multiple opponents that he practised as a boy in Karate-Do: My Way of Life.

Motobu talks about kata and kumite would be practised side by side:

“Matsumora from Tomari and some others used to go to Katabaru at night when the moon was very bright. There they trained so hard that they could not even get up by themselves because of aching backs and legs. All their body parts were so sore, that when they reached their homes around dawn, they were unable to even crawl inside. So they lay down at the entrances where they fell asleep. They were too tired to go to their bedrooms. This was how hard they used to train in those days. They trained and studied kata and kumite at the same time.” - Choki Motobu

“Kumite is an actual fight using the methods of kata to grapple with the opponent" - Choki Motobu

Mabuni recommended sparring both with and without armour:

“The main disadvantage of the armour to date is that we are not fully able to use any part of the body as a weapon; which is the nature of karate. It is my hope that the current armour will be improved and with continued practice and research this problem can be overcome. In the meantime, those who use armour should not neglect the practice of kata in conjunction with prearranged sparring and free sparring without armour. Otherwise, you will come to rely on the armour. Consequently, you will miss the aim of Karate which is to be able protect yourself from an assailant.” – Kenwa Mabuni

And so on.

In short, what Noah said :-)

The good news is that modern equipment means we can train in ways that the past masters could not, but would have wanted to. Groin guards, gloves, shin guards, etc can allow safer and more realistic practise. They had to adapt baseball gear etc., because that’s all they had.

All the best,

Iain

Graziano
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No I don't mean the competition, I don't mean and I don't care, I mean the principle behind ju kumite, attack not preordinate, I knew kake dameshi , but a italian sensei told me, so I understand, that kakedameshi is the okinawa name, of street fighting, not a training method it happened to red light district, where there was prostitutes and drunk man often on the night, like go to the bronk for try my techiniques, now I want understand,

was the kakedameshi, a regular pratise,full contact kind, on the dojo for testing the techiniches, o a street fighting matck?

Graziano
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Wastelander wrote:

What we know as jiyu kumite, today, is a quite recent innovation from mainland Japan, which was largely based on the way they compete in kendo and has very little in common with the way Okinawan karate was intended to function. Around the same time that was being developed on Japan, bogu kumite was becoming popular on Okinawa. That said, bogu kumite was also a relatively new creation at the time. Classical Okinawan pressure testing was done through kakedameshi and tegumi, both of which have been described in book by Funakoshi Gichin and Nagamine Shoshin. The gist of kakedameshi is that is was, essentially, full-contact pushing hands with strikes, locks, and takedowns. Tegumi, on the other hand, was folkstyle submission wrestling.

Are you this

how I told to Ian.  was the kakedameshi, a regular pratise,full contact kind on the dojo for test the techiniches, o ,a street fighting match?

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Kakedameshi was a training method, and used for challenge fights, but it was not the name for street fights in the Tsuji district. That's a misnomer--I suspect it was incorrectly translated.

Marc
Marc's picture

When discussing a Japanese term I feel it always helps to look up the meaning of the word in question:

"Kakedameshi" = "駆け試し"

where

"駆け" = "kake" = drive; run; gallop; advance; inspire; impel

"試し" = "tameshi" = test; try; attempt; experiment; ordeal

Source: http://tangorin.com/dict.php?dict=general&s=%E9%A7%86%E3%81%91%E8%A9%A6%E3%81%97

So "Kakedameshi" would mean something along the lines of "advancing for an ordeal", "running a test", "impelling (someone) to try (something)".

I realise that that does not help in understanding whether it was a training method or a street challenge.  

Wastelander
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For what it's worth, kakedameshi was described in the editor’s notes of Nagamine Shoshin’s book, Tales of Okinawa’s Great Masters, as “a very aggressive version of taiji pushing hands,” where opponents try to knock each other down, use “manipulation techniques,” and strike each other, including with kicks, elbows, and knee strikes.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Wastelander wrote:
kakedameshi was described in the editor’s notes of Nagamine Shoshin’s book, Tales of Okinawa’s Great Masters, as “a very aggressive version of taiji pushing hands,” where opponents try to knock each other down, use “manipulation techniques,” and strike each other, including with kicks, elbows, and knee strikes.

It’s a really good book and that’s a pretty clear and succinct description. What is obvious is that training practise was not the long distance sparring most often practised in karate today. That’s close-range stuff and hence more relevant to the methods of the kata / self-protection.

Also worth pointing out that kakedameshi was not the only type of live practise done in the past. For example, Funakoshi talks about live grappling to unconsciousness or submission, live fighting his way to the feet when pinned, repelling multiple attackers who would try to take him to the ground for as long as was possible, etc.

Some other general thoughts relating to this thread:

While the “old school” stuff is definitely more relevant to the up-close world of self-protection. I also like to explore the more modern fighting side of karate too. This does not have to be WKF competition style kumite. In our case that’s not something we do. “Karate fighting” can be more eclectic to include gripping, throws, hooks, uppercuts, takedowns, submissions, etc. We can keep it “all in”. This was what Henri Plee (often referred to as “the father of European karate”) described in his book:

“One must not lose sight of the fact that karate is “all-in” fighting. Everything is allowed … This is why karate is based on blows delivered with the hand, the foot, the head or the knee. Equally permissible are strangulations, throwing techniques and locks.”

I think it’s good to have both live self-defence focussed sparring (kata-based-sparring), and live fighting sparring too. It’s just a matter of being clear on what is being trained for in any given moment and always perusing skills in line with the stated objective. It’s fun and stops our karate becoming one dimensional. It’s good to explore the whole “martial map” so long as we definitely know where we are on that map: https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/martial-map-free-audio-book

It’s also not about what types of sparring as the most “traditional”, it is about what kinds of live practise best serve the acquiring of the stated skill set. Modern equipment means we can spar in ways the past masters could not.

One thing that everyone should be clear on is that if we want any kind of functional combative skill then we need live practise.

All the best,

Iain

Wastelander
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Iain is certainly quite right that kakedameshi was not the only pressure testing method on Okinawa--it merely seems to have been the "standard" approach. The practice of tegumi described by Funakoshi (and also by Nagamine, actually) is another pressure testing method. I've also read accounts of masters engaging in more of a "fisticuffs" type of fight for sparring purposes or challenges, including Matsumura Sokon, Matsumoro Kosaku, Kishimoto Soko, and Itosu, to name a few. Then, of course, we have situations like Motobu Choki's barroom brawls, and thugs showing up at various dojo (primarily during the first half of the 20th Century) to fight people, which likely would have been more like Motobu's brawls or "fisticuffs" fights than kakedameshi or tegumi. Chibana Chosin--the founder of the style I practice--was the dai senpai of Itosu's dojo for a time, and one of his duties was to fight any brash youths or rival karate students who came to challenge the dojo. Suffice it to say, all the way up until WW2, Okinawan karate had a very thorough history of pressure testing their methods. Things started to change before that, of course, but they changed dramatically after WW2.

Like Iain, we take a diversified approach to pressure testing, for a number of reasons. We do WKF or USKA-style point fighting for those interested in competing, but it also develops a lot of speed and the ability to cover distance. We do kickboxing-style sparring, for those who want more contact and more of a continuous fight. We do MMA-style sparring to cover a wide array of ranges in combat, from long distance all the way to groundwork. We do kakedameshi to put our tuidi-waza and associated fighting methods under pressure. We do self defense sparring, or kata-based sparring, to work on dealing with specific attacks, or employing specific methods. We do submission grappling, either standing-only, groundwork-only, or free-range, as well, so that we can focus specifically on the fundamentals of dealing with such situations. Personally, I don't see any reason to pick just one, unless you are intended to be a competitor, first and foremost.

Graziano
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Then Tegumi and kakedameshi was two forms of free  sparring, kakedameshi it was to close distance, and had strike and takedown, tegumi it was kind of grappling and wasnt kick, punch, strike, only grapling like randori on judo, but for self defence. Is it correct? 

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Graziano wrote:
Then Tegumi and kakedameshi was two forms of free  sparring, kakedameshi it was to close distance, and had strike and takedown, tegumi it was kind of grappling and wasnt kick, punch, strike, only grapling like randori on judo, but for self defence. Is it correct?

Tegumi was a competitive sport, actually, so it wasn't geared toward self defense, although techniques transfer. It was very much like randori in judo, but without all the restrictions and, if I recall correctly, without a top of any kind. Despite it being a sport, of course, you certainly develop the skills needed to apply techniques under pressure. Here is a bit of light kakedameshi from a sparring class in my dojo--we're all going slow, with light contact, and most of the students had never done it before, so it's a pretty good look at introductory kakedameshi. As you get better, the speed increases, the contact gets harder, the resistance increases, and the general intensity goes up significantly.