11 posts / 0 new
Last post
Jr cook
Jr cook's picture
Considering kata variations for bunkai

I am currently working out some applications for my style's version of Chinto. As usual for my personal process, I am studying other style's variations of the form. Then it hit me, this may not be "usual" and I might be making life harder than it has to be.

I do think the research has value, even if it is just to see another perspective. However, in some cases, such as Chinto/Gankaku, it seems there is a lot more variation than others.

I guess my question to the group is, how many consider variations of forms in their bunkai process? If you do so, do you let the variations influence your final applications? How so?

Thanks for the help

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

To me, variations in kata are often just alternative expressions of common principles. Looking at those variations can help us more clearly see the core message. The commonalties far outweigh the differences, and those differences are not significant enough, in my view, to warrant viewing the style variations as separate independent entities. It’s essentially all the same stuff.

At the seminars I use the analogy of five blind men experiencing an elephant for the first time. The first one feels the trunk and concludes that elephants are like snakes. The second one feels the tail and concludes that elephants are like a frayed piece of rope. The third one feels a leg and concludes that elephants are like tree trunks. The fourth one feels the side and concludes that elephants are like walls. The fifth one feels all around the elephant and concludes that elephants are like elephants.

The point is that what the first four men experienced was the truth; from a given perspective. However, they got stuck in the details and the “big truth” was only experienced when all those perspectives were combined. I think it’s similar with style variations of kata. While knowing and refining one core version of the kata is very important, being familiar with other variations helps us to look at our kata from “other angles” and hence get the big picture. It stops us getting stuck in the detail and keeps us focused on what is truly important.

I’m of the view that the core combative principles embedded in the kata are bigger than any style. The “message” remains the same, even if the “handwriting” used to write that message varies. I sometimes think that karateka get so hung up on the tiny differences between style variations that the big picture and the overwhelming commonalties get lost.

It’s totally OK to have a preferred version of the kata, but we lose the big picture if we think that one “viewpoint” is the only viewpoint.

All the best,

Iain

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Jr. cook 

I like to look what other people do with kata and bunkai, to get new perspective, we all getting stuck in our bubble. We have our favourite application and ways, often we are not aware that we are stuck. Being open to what others think and do is a way to burst that bubble. For me it is always refreshing to see other peoples ideas, it helps realise how limited my views are.

Iain 

Love the elephant analogy, simply brilliant. 

Kind regards 

Les

Dean Thomas
Dean Thomas's picture

I must say, I find this topic particularly interseting as the kata in the style I practice have fewer commonalities with the more-traditional variations of the kata. I'm very new to the practical bunkai perspective on karate and I'm still tying to figure out a good way to study the traditional kata variations to learn what they have to teach me.

Kind Regards

Dean

calaveraz
calaveraz's picture

In my opinion its a very good thing to look into variations of the same Kata in other styles. For me coming from Shotokan it was sometimes really hard to find any useful explanation at all by just considering the Shotokan version only. And you picked exactly the same Kata which is still causing me headache (and a lot of head scratching). Gankaku especially compared to Chinto from Okinawan style looks like a complete different form. It is obviously a good example how far the apple can fall from the tree. I my opinion too many techniques have been dropped and altered in that Shotokan version to really get a useful Bunkai out of it which does not completly ignores the form or adds a lot of extra stuff which is not in the form.

While adaptation and adding extra stuff ("Oyo") seems to be the only way of getting the Kata to realistic "live" practises (as propagated by Ian ;) ), I first prefer Bunkai which really has a close link to the form and later develop more realistic adaptations. This seems also to be important if you ever try to instruct other people. Even (or maybe especially) experienced Karateka from TMA will simply reject a Bunkai which "looks to far away" from the Kata. And for that other styles often offer valid slight variations, e.g. for Gankaku have a look at the Manji-Uke row in Kokutsu-Dachi. For me it makes no real sense in the Shotokan version, but if you perform it like in the Okinawan Chinto version it becomes a different movement which still looks similar to the Shotokan version and suddenly there is this "aww...that could be meant here" feeling because you can feel that you obviously block and pull the enemy with the backward hand while hitting or throwing him with the forehand downwards. And then the core principle becomes much clearer. At least this is how it works for me.

br

Marc

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

I don't try to memorize the way other styles do things, but I do take a look at the different versions from time to time. It's helpful for me to see different approaches to common methods, which is useful in my personal bunkai

Jr cook
Jr cook's picture

Marc, Wastelander,

I'm right there with you guys. I don't plan to learn other versions of the katas but I see them as supplemental information.

The issue currently is, as Marc noted, Chinto/Gankaku varies wildly in some cases. Each time I find something that seems useful in one version, I find a mixed message somewhere else it seems. Often as a ressult of the reorganization or omission of pieces.

The broader study might be hurting more than helping in this case.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Great posts! There’s a very interesting distinction being raised between “doing” and “knowing”. I think that’s really important.

I do have many other versions of the kata memorised, but I only practise the one version physically.  So I guess I “know” many versions, but I only “do” one version.

It started when I was kata judging and it was a requirement to know the ins and outs of many variations. I found that hugely helpful when studying bunkai and hence I started looking more and more at variations. Those who have seen the DVDs will know I constantly refer to the differing versions and my aim is always to make everything I do “style-free”. These days, when teaching seminars to groups that are always mixed styles, I find a knowledge of the more common variants helps make sure the material presented is a relevant to all.

However, away from all that, in my personal training I do the kata one way and it’s my aim to refine that “one way” to the highest level possible. Doing two versions could see me “trying to catch two rabbits” (#1) so I don’t do that as the norm. I am, however, always aware that when it comes to application my chosen version of the kata is just own perspective on a common set of principles. To paraphrase Bruce Lee (#2), I don’t fixate on the “finger pointing” (my kata) but instead look to the “heavenly glory” (the common combative principles).

All the best,

Iain

#1 – "If you chase two rabbits, you will not catch either one.” Russian Proverb.

#2 – “It’s like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.” Bruce Lee, Enter the Dragon.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Jr cook wrote:
Marc, Wastelander, I'm right there with you guys. I don't plan to learn other versions of the katas but I see them as supplemental information. The issue currently is, as Marc noted, Chinto/Gankaku varies wildly in some cases. Each time I find something that seems useful in one version, I find a mixed message somewhere else it seems. Often as a ressult of the reorganization or omission of pieces. The broader study might be hurting more than helping in this case.

I suppose it really depends on your comfort level with the bunkai process. You have to understand that different people changed the kata for different reasons--some to highlight specific applications, some for aesthetic reasons, and some for 3K-style applications. With that in mind, we are bound to find some versions of kata that contain things that we find odd, or that conflict with our version, rather than highlighting variations of our version.

In Chinto, for example, my version (Kobayashi) drops straight back and thrusts the first juji-uke out with both hands, simultaneously, while the Shobayashi version shifts back to an angle and lifts the left hand into position and circles the right hand from overhead to drop into position for the juji-uke. That's not a variation--that's a distinctly different method! Which one is right? Nobody knows, because nobody is still alive from when the kata was originally developed. That said, we can still benefit from both approaches, even if they are very different.

Jr cook
Jr cook's picture

Good points. Thanks for the input from everyone. I think my struggle is finding the right balance between the kata I do and the ones I know (though I use that term very loosely). The bit about the two rabbits seems to speak the loudest at the moment.

I've considered that it might be easier to just build a time-machine and get to the bottom of this. I had discounted that idea due to cognative and financial limitations but, maybe it's time to reconsider? 

Chikara Andrew
Chikara Andrew's picture

Jr cook wrote:

I've considered that it might be easier to just build a time-machine and get to the bottom of this. I had discounted that idea due to cognative and financial limitations but, maybe it's time to reconsider? 

I think that there has probably never been a better time than the present for exploring this stuff. We live a world with a free flow of information and resources. I too will review other versions of a given kata and also seek out and review other explanations.

Andrew