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rtabley
rtabley's picture
Clinch Fighting Training for women

Hi

I help out with training at my dojo. I currently run a supplementary class going through skills and techniques for kata based sparring, for example clinches/ stand up grappling etc

A challenge I have is training some ladies in class in clinch techniques. Where the strength and height of the men tend to dominate in this range. We go through pummeling, clearing the arms etc.

So we start in basic clinch positioning, techniques to clear the arms, body movement and redirection. The challenge starts when we include a level of resistance. The ladies struggle with the strength and height of the men.

A few thoughts have crossed my mind:

- the ladies are looking for a silver bullet technique that will solve the problem

- the men are providing the resistance in a way that the ladies cannot practice their technique

- I am not getting them to drill the techniques sufficiently.

- I am showing them too many techniques

Any advice anyone can give to help me teach the ladies in the class more effectively in clinch fighting?

Thanks in advance

RT

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi rtabley,

Strength and size are always a factor. They can be mitigated by good technique though.

rtabley wrote:
The challenge starts when we include a level of resistance. The ladies struggle with the strength and height of the men.

It sounds like it may be too much resistance too soon?

rtabley wrote:
the ladies are looking for a silver bullet technique that will solve the problem

That can happen if the student feels learning a technique is instantaneous i.e. “you’ve shown me it, I’ve tried it once, and it did not work, so the technique is wrong!” Emphasising that skill takes time to develop could help. Their skill level will need to be even higher than the larger males who can “muscle it” to a degree. Developing skill takes time. It’s not simply being shown the “trick”.

rtabley wrote:
the men are providing the resistance in a way that the ladies cannot practice their technique

That can be an issue too. Skill, like strength, needs increasing levels of resistance to develop effectively and safely. White belts don’t progress if the “training” is just getting smashed to pieces by the black belts. We need people training at the level where their better techniques succeed, and their weaker ones fail. This makes their better techniques better still (weeds out the poorer ones too), and hence the resistance should then be increased to continue the development.

We have our beginners do a lot of “playing” (done for mutual benefit and enjoyment) in the clinch as opposed to “fighting” (both are trying to win). The use of the word “play” helps stop the resistance getting too much too soon. It allows them to experiment and familiarise themselves with the environment.

rtabley wrote:
I am not getting them to drill the techniques sufficiently

rtabley wrote:
I am showing them too many techniques

That can happen too. I know plenty of folks who “technique collect” and their idea of good training is when everything is new. The reality is that lot of repetition is required to develop true competence. It bugs the life out of me when I show a student something and they say, “I’ve DONE that one”. I’ve done hundreds of thousands of straight punches and I’m still not happy with it. A technique is never “done” and can always be improved. We can create novel drills to make the repetition as enjoyable as possible, but repetition is needed.

As Bruce Lee said, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

It does seem like you have identified the potential issues. If you mange expectations, insist on the right level of resistance while the technique is being developed, and get them to focus on the core methods, then it should help move things along.

All the best,

Iain

PASmith
PASmith's picture

Maybe...mix and match the partners up? The men that put on too much resistance will, perhaps, end up with men that are bigger and stronger than them and learn a lesson on resistance needing to be approriate to the person involved? And the women would get to partner other women and have an easier time learning a new skill? Constanly emphasise progressive resistance I think. With the operative word being "progressive".

As Iain said..emphasise play...the Thai's are some of the best clinchers on the planet (within their ruleset) and they "play" all the time. Nothing too crazy or strenuous but slowly feeling the angles, openings and where balance is. Give and take where no one is too fussed about winning, losing or dominating. Maybe some male ego is coming into it?

And...at the end of the day clinching up with someone that is bigger and stronger than you is damn hard! There're are people out there that even someone like Iain would have a hard time with (with all due respect). :)

JD
JD's picture

Hi rtabley,

rtabley wrote:
the men are providing the resistance in a way that the ladies cannot practice their technique

Emphasize the importance of keeping it playful to everyone training before, during and after demonstrating and teaching them grappling. I tell pupils sometimes - less is more!!

Also, if the option is available, whilst the women learn, partner them off with other women. They'll feel more comfortable and have time to polish techniques in order to then use them against the men.

PASmith wrote:
the Thai's are some of the best clinchers on the planet (within their ruleset) and they "play" all the time. Nothing too crazy or strenuous but slowly feeling the angles, openings and where balance is. Give and take where no one is too fussed about winning, losing or dominating.

This I agree with massively, better staying relaxed and 'feeling' the moment instead of getting too excited and overpowering the techniques when trying to learn... keeping it playful is keeping it real! - ouu I like that!

PASmith wrote:
And...at the end of the day clinching up with someone that is bigger and stronger than you is damn hard!

This is something I agree with also, I'm not the biggest guy around and so when grappling comes into it, I rely heavily on technique as opposed to weight and size, BJJ really helped me with this, and the Kata drills of course. Some guys have abnormal strength and it makes things very difficult for sure, however, if you're 'smooth' with your thought process and stay relaxed, technique comes more easily and you win by fluidity of mind and body coupled with technique.

PASmith wrote:
There're are people out there that even someone like Iain would have a hard time with (with all due respect). :)

Have you lost your mind sir? :-)

Legend has it, Iain's punches are so fast they reach warp factor 5!

Not to mention wild Canadian bears go weak in the knee's and break out into cold sweats when confronted with the thought of grappling with him... I've seen him live, it would have to be someone ''damn hard'' and pretty special to tackle Iain and come away still being able to walk straight and remember his own first name!  :-)

Although there is 1 man... Chuck Norris! :-)

I'm only kidding (it's been a long day for me lol)

Good luck and all the best,

JD

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

PASmith wrote:
And...at the end of the day clinching up with someone that is bigger and stronger than you is damn hard! There're are people out there that even someone like Iain would have a hard time with (with all due respect). :)

I know that to be unequivocally true … in all directions. I have above average strength due to weight lifting my entire adult life, but I have been overpowered by some really big guys. I was technically better, but their “good enough” technique and brute force combined to give them the advantage. I’ve also be totally out gripped by people I am physically stronger than, but who are technically superior to me. The high-level judo guys I trained with jump to mind as good examples. I was larger and physically stronger than many of them, but their greater gripping skills were able to negate that advantage. I’ve also overpowered people better than me, and out-skilled people larger than me. No denying strength counts though.

Otsuka (the founder of Wado-ryu) said there were three kinds of strength: technical, physical and mental … and that if any of these were deficient “it would be the downfall of the individual”. He tells the story of a large western wrestler standing up and shaking of a smaller Japanese jujutsuka as he tried to apply juji-gatame (cross lock) to illustrate his point.

Skill can definitely negate strength and size; but strength and size are still an undeniable factor.

All the best,

Iain

JD
JD's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Otsuka (the founder of Wado-ryu) said there were three kinds of strength: technical, physical and mental … and that if any of these were deficient “it would be the downfall of the individual”. He tells the story of a large western wrestler standing up and shaking of a smaller Japanese jujutsuka as he tried to apply juji-gatame (cross lock) to illustrate his point.

Being a Wado ryu practitioner, I've heard this before -  it's simple and a very accurate point, however, I never knew he told a story of a western wrestler doing that to a Jap Jujutsuka, I like finding interesting stories like that out, thanks for sharing.

Would be interesting to see how the bigger, stronger opponents would fair in grappling when strikes are added, I've seen big guys who are awesome wrestlers and BJJ fighters, but when they enter an environment where strikes are permitted also, such as MMA cage, their skill seems to diminish and they go insular and less active, panic sets in and they try to hold/lock their opponent up and 'sit tight' trying to survive the storm if you like. 

Strikes are also a way to negate strength somewhat in addition to good grappling technique, me thinks.

Thanks, 

JD

deltabluesman
deltabluesman's picture

I agree with most everything that's been said, so I'll try to keep my comments brief.  

First, much respect to you for teaching these important skills in the first place!  

Second, I agree with the advice others have given on toning down the level of resistance.  Every now and then, it's good to test yourself against someone much stronger/better/larger than you are, to remember what that's like.  But I'd try to have people spend most of the training time working the clinch on people of relatively equal size and height.  IMHO, this is a much better way to develop overall grappling/wrestling technique.  

Third, I would frame these exercises in a particular way.  I assume that your goal is to teach clinch work for self-protection purposes.  If so, I would emphasize to my smaller students that the aim is to escape.  The aim is not necessarily to outwrestle your enemy (although you may have to do that).  The aim is for them to get good enough at clinch work and wrestling so that if someone grabs them or ties up with them in a fight, they have enough skill to surprise that attacker, get to a better position, and strike until they escape.  And that's an easier goal for a student who's just learning to clinch:  to be the person who is surprisingly good at clinch work for his/her weight. 

Lastly, I would focus on the principle of "my tie or no tie."  There was a really great video on Youtube where a female judo expert talked about this (I can't find it right now, unfortunately).  But in a nutshell, it's just a mindset of always setting the terms of the tie-up/clinch whenever you can.  You set the pace and set the terms.  This is especially important for smaller students.  It's kind of like the basic principle of "position before submission."  (If I do find the video I'll edit this and post it here.)

EDITED:  I found the video.  Here it is:

 

And if you're looking for more technical information, there's a pretty good book I would recommend.  It's called the Wrestling Drill Book by Will Welker.  I'd say that 80% of it won't be useful for you, but if you can find a cheap copy, it might be worth it.  It's aimed at high school wrestling coaches, but it may give you ideas you can adapt to karate.  

Just my two cents.  I'm not a martial arts instructor, but I've spent a fair amount of time grappling with guys much larger than me. 

rtabley
rtabley's picture

Thanks everyone for your advice. Ours is a really small dojo of over 40's. Really no opportunity to mix people up. I will take on the advice provided.