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Nimrod Nir
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Bassai Dai First Turn Bunkai

I have a question regarding the first turn in Bassai Dai, just after the first move of the kata (0:12):

Why is there a turn here?

A few possible explanations come to mind:

1. There is some kind of throw after the first move of the kata, which is represented by the turn.

2. Because the previous move ends with a Kosa Dachi (cross-legged stance), and the relevant bunkai is best demonstrated with the left leg forwards, the easiest way to get to this position is by turning (instead of taking the left leg forward from behind the right leg awkwardly).

3. The relevant bunkai intends to be applied from behind the opponent (seems less likely to me in this instance...)

4. Considering the rest of the kata, this is the best way to avoid going too much forward, i.e. space considerations (also seems less likely to me, as the kata could have been constructed in many different ways which solve this)

Any interesting ideas and suggestions? 

John M Avilla
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Check out this vid. Some of this guy's bunkai are a little goofy but most seem plausible. I think Iain may have some vids on this sequence too.

Philios
Philios's picture

There really aren't many examples on YouTube of people incorporating the turn to link movement 1 with movement 2 (and 3).  To me, this indicates that the consensus is that the first movement is considered an application sequence in and of itself.

 

However, here's one I've found that implies the next movements are meant to be used from behind the attacker.  I believe the gentleman in the video posts here on occassion.

 

In this example (at 0:39) , movement 1 is treated as a strike and movement 2 is used to pull the head into your shoulder, followed by a throw.

 

And here's just an interesting application for movement 1 that I found that I thought I would share.  It has nothing to do with linking it to movement #2, but I really like the idea of kosa-dachi being used as a grapevine to trap the leg.

 

Interesting topic!

 

Cheers.

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Hi all, I don't have a clip for that move, but we use it as a neck pull after unsuccessful tallow from first sequence. I opponent manage to keep upright his balance is disturbed giving us a chance to grab him and pull or do tai otoshi. Clip for first sequence, I might record that take down in the future

Kind regards

Les

Nimrod Nir
Nimrod Nir's picture

John M Avilla wrote:
Check out this vid. Some of this guy's bunkai are a little goofy but most seem plausible. I think Iain may have some vids on this sequence too.

I know the guys from Shuhari Institution and must admit I'm not convinced by their interpretations. Anyway, he doesn't address the turn at all. Iain also doesn't address this turn, and that's why I posted in the first place. 

Philios wrote:
However, here's one I've found that implies the next movements are meant to be used from behind the attacker.  I believe the gentleman in the video posts here on occassion.

I like this one though, being a continuation to the first part. If you failed applying it properly (which is indeed difficult, wrist locks always being tricky), than you would need to turn in order to face the opponent and apply the next bunkai. Nice. 

John M Avilla
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Nimrod Nir wrote:

John M Avilla wrote:
Check out this vid. Some of this guy's bunkai are a little goofy but most seem plausible. I think Iain may have some vids on this sequence too.

The I know the guys from Shuhari Institution and must admit I'm not convinced by their interpretations. Anyway, he doesn't address the turn at all. Iain also doesn't address this turn, and that's why I posted in the first place. 

Philios wrote:
However, here's one I've found that implies the next movements are meant to be used from behind the attacker.  I believe the gentleman in the video posts here on occassion.

I like this one though, being a continuation to the first part. If you failed applying it properly (which is indeed difficult, wrist locks always being tricky), than you would need to turn in order to face the opponent and apply the next bunkai. Nice. 

Ah yes, you seem to be correct. I thought DG went through the whole thing in this vid. My bad.

John M Avilla
John M Avilla's picture

Wait a minute, I think the first turn is addressed. He is using it as an arm bar. I am too agreeable sometimes, lol

Nimrod Nir
Nimrod Nir's picture

John M Avilla wrote:

Wait a minute, I think the first turn is addressed. He is using it as an arm bar. I am too agreeable sometimes, lol

The armbar relates to the next sequence (moves 4-5). Anyway, as I mentioned, I'm not convinced by this interpretation.

John M Avilla
John M Avilla's picture

Right, second turn. My bad. I agree that it isn't the most convincing, but it isn't horrible either. As I am thinking about it though, the first turn happens right after the wrist lock. Someone else said that it might involve getting behind the opponent. Based on angles this sounds correct. The inside block might be getting a grip on the shoulder while simultaneously passing the arm so that you are on the outside and then behind. That would leave the next inside block unexplained but it gets you halfway there and it makes sense, no?

Heath White
Heath White's picture

My favorite bunkai for this move is that the first move smacks him while entering for a shoulder throw.  Insert your right arm under his, pivot and throw.  The actual throwing motion is not shown, but the turn is vital.  Movements 2 and 3 are the next sequence.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Kosa-dachi sets you up to spin your body--something I wrote about some years ago (https://www.karateobsession.com/2014/08/kosa-dachi-bunkai.html), actually. It also allows you to sink, and angle your body in place. In some cases, I see the kosa-dachi as a "placeholder," of sorts, where the kata tells you to execute a throw, or some other technique where rotational power is beneficial. In some cases, though, the spin is actually explicit in the kata. The Itosu version of Passai simply steps back out of kosa-dachi, but the Tawada version spins out of it, and Itosu Kusanku Sho also has a spin from kosa-dachi in some versions.

With that in mind, let's say you start the kata with a throw, or joint lock, and the kosa-dachi is a placeholder. If you were to execute that technique with a spin, you would end up facing the rear. If your opponent was not finished--perhaps they regained their balance, or escaped your lock--they would then be in front of you, allowing the next movements in the kata to be used against them as an alternative to recover from your failed previous technique. Just some thoughts to play with.

Nimrod Nir
Nimrod Nir's picture

Thank you for the insightful comment Noah.

Definitely brought some thoughts to play with.

The explanation I currently find most appealing is that your first move failed, and now you are turning to face the opponent, which is located behind you, sort of…