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Finlay
Finlay's picture
Being independant

Hello How many instructors here are independant or semi independant from larger organisations? By that I mean You design your own curriculum and grade your own students... up to a point at least. If you are willing to share, how did you become independent? What problems do you have with being independent? Last question is a little bit odd I guess, how do you feel about teaching forms or kata from a organised system but being independent. Thanks for any responses

Elmar
Elmar's picture

I grew up under the JKA/AAKF (Nishiyama) curriculum in the late 60's,  and have kept that as the testing curriculum, although with a few additons. I teach stuff from goju and shorinjiryu as well as a bit of aikido and judo to inform the kata applications.  I left the xxKx organizations in the late 70's and joined with ATAMA/ISOK.  Since ISOK closed its doors a couple of years ago, I am independent, issuing certs under my own name, although I still maintain an affiliation with ATAMA.  Feels fine to me.  The important thing to me when someone comes to me is to ask: wsho was your teacher, and who was their teacher, andf or how long did you train?  then let them show what they know.  Rank only comes into question if they want ranking from me; until then they can wear rank whatever they like, since they are essentially guests.

Bob Davis
Bob Davis's picture

To be honest (as I know a number of people personally who have or are still doing a lot of soul searching on the subject) I do struggle sometimes as to what people fear so much about the idea of being independant.

I grew up under (an affiliation to) the SKI umbrella but have never missed it after going on my own. Insurance is easy to cover for both instructor and students. I do my own student grades and issue my own certificates (although I typically get an external aid in for gradings to give me a 3rd party opinion). Quite happy to grade my own black belts as well and register them with an external body, although it that circumstance I would use a group of my peers to assess as well rather than just my own say so.

The big issue (and fear) with independants seems to be "but who do you train and grade under", my answer to that is that I train under many people (anybody who has something of valuse to teach) or very often nobody, and I have no intention of personally grading any further so it doesn't worry me (although it could be arranged if I felt the need).

Why would I be concerned about teaching "kata from an organised system", they are the kata I originally learned and are the core of what I do but nobody has copyright on them and I do not need to keep up with a miriad of (seemingly) pointless changes in performance when the bulk of everything I do is about function anyway and the versions I know work very well for that.

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Hi Finley,

I’m an independent instructor, for me it was bit different as I’m a student of Independent Instructor. My teacher hated big organisations; he decided to leave Kyokushin as one of the first in Poland (1986) and never joined any other, many have approach him.

So for me being independent was natural, I did try to join big organisations in search of structure, support and lineage, thinking that with a big organisation will be more opportunities to learn.

Very quickly I discovered that there is not much of support but a lot of power hungry people and all three organisations that I tried were riddled with political games. So I give up on this and to be honest being independent gives me access to many more instructors from different organisations, where belonging to a corpokarate would stop me attending.

I have no problem with adapting my syllabus and grading my students, I have a rule that on all examinations above 5th Kyu  I invite other teachers to make sure I’m non-biased. For a black belt grading we have panel of instructors on International seminars.

I found that as an independent instructor I can have non-political and supportive organisation, but it has to be one made from independent people. At the moment I’m member of two organisations one is Isshindo Kan Europe where we have our grading and freely exchanging our knowledge from different disciplines and recently I joined British Combat Karate Association which I highly recommend as they are super helpful, efficient and supportive. Dawn does superb job and both Iain and Peter are always accessible and honest, which I appreciate.

If you looking for organisation that supports and promotes independence without politics go for them you won’t regret.

Few years ago I wrote this article about outsiders you might find interesting.

https://shinaido.wordpress.com/2014/08/16/the-outsiders/

Kind regards

Les  

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

There is definitely a lot of institutionalised thinking in the martial arts.  The bottom line is that if people don’t like the group they are affiliated to – and are finding it more of a hindrance than a help – they can leave.

I liken it to the old movie Logan’s Run. In the film, set in dystopian future where people are infantilised and “renewed” (i.e. killed) at age 30, they are told there is nothing but death and misery outside the domed city … until the main character leaves and finds people doing just fine.

You can be independent and retain both loose and more formal affiliations. You can still have people to train with, grade under, get advice from, provide insurance, etc and you can be the master of your own ship.

All the groups my club has have been in membership with have offered both support and autonomy. I’d not belong to one that did not.  

Les Bubka wrote:
I joined British Combat Karate Association which I highly recommend as they are super helpful, efficient and supportive. Dawn does superb job and both Iain and Peter are always accessible and honest, which I appreciate.

The British Combat Karate Association, British Combat Association, and World Combat Association (collectively “The Combat Group”) are a large organisation, but they are not restrictive or dictatorial. They are large precisely because of the fact that you retain your independence. Most of the membership are what Peter calls, “Disenfranchised Traditionalists” i.e. those for who the “3K organisations” were no longer a good fit (which is why most are in rapid decline).

Most of the active practical karate you can think of are either direct members, or friends of the family, of the Combat Group.  

The bottom-line is that people don’t need to restrict themselves in ways they don’t want to. Join a group that supports you or be fully independent while making connections with like-minded martial artists. Martial arts is no longer a closed shop.  

My advice would always be to talk to people who have “made the leap” because the vast majority will say that the “leap” they envisaged was way more daunting than the one they actually made.

All the best,

Iain

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

It's a scary leap of faith to make, certainly. I will be moving to a new city at the beginning of 2020, and at that point I will be leaving the dojo I have been with for over 9 years. That doesn't mean I intend to stop training, of course, and I plan to occasionally visit that dojo, as well as seeking out instruction from a wide array of instructors whom I respect and would love to learn more from. When I start my own karate program in that city (which currently doesn't have much in the way of martial arts instruction available), it will be unaffiliated, except for my membership in the World Combat Association. I am hopeful that I will not run into too many roadblocks because of that.

As to your questions about the curriculum, I am still in the theoretical stage, but I certainly do have some changes I plan to make. I will definitely be dropping all the yakusoku kumite drills, and trimming the list of kata I teach. Lately, I have been playing with different ways to organize the curriculum--of course, it would be easy to just teach it the way that I was taught, but I also have the chance to do something different. Should I do it kata by kata? Should I teach the applications first, or keep teaching them along with the solo form? Should I organize it by groupings of techniques or skills? Should I completely revamp the entire process? So many questions! Sometimes I feel like my brain is going to overload, lol. The testing part is kind of reliant on the curriculum, to a degree, depending on how you want to go about it. You could always drop the belt system, entirely, and not worry about it. You could also keep the belt system based on where students are in the curriculum, which is typical for most karate schools, or you could try to make it more skill-focused like Judo, but you would have to be sure you based that on a solid pressure-testing process..

tubbydrawers
tubbydrawers's picture

Hi, I am in a situation where the current Association I am with is kind of ok. A few Instructors and 2 particular clubs there - "hate me" for being outspoken and maybe i have rubbed a few people up the wrong way with my take on gradings etc. They still teach the Ippon style 1 step attack when it comes to Black Belt gradings and they don't do any partner work in gradings untill around 4th Kyu. More emphasis is placed on being fit for the grading than rather technical aspects of Karate - as in bunkai, SD, Kata. you can even mess up your kata on Black Belt gradings and still pass, so long as you are fit to do push-ups.

I joined the WCA, completed their Combat and Instructor courses and I have now have a WCA syllabus which they have approved. Iain helped quite a bit to point me in the correct direction. I am still with said association but I now grade my own students as I am really not welcomed at the association gradings. I believe that my students need to learn partner work at white belt level and we do some basic Bunkai based on the Kata they learn.

I find that I am happy to train with some of the instructors but not with others and I am now limiting my appearance in the club. I am still with them as I feel I am a bit 'wary' of moving away. The same instructors who have a problem with me seem to like putting their oars in whatever I do, so I would not put it pass them for them to sabotage my club. It would not surprise me!

I have been told by one of the higher grades that I will never grade with them. I get constantly asked to teach their students bunkai for their gradings because their own instructors do not care or do not know anything about it or put unrealistic ideas in the students heads. There is no thank you from the students when I have done this either, I get talked about behind my back and lower grade adults refuse to spar with me because I spar with take downs, grappling etc. I am a 3rd Dan right now and this has happened by 1st Dan adults.

One of my ' fears' is that my students would leave if I am not with the bigger Association - the Association is very successful on the competition area, I was myself when I competed with them at State, national and international level. So that part is good, but do I go and do my own thing and maybe still train under one of them. I am not sure!

Sometimes I think it's best to stay, do my own thing and meet with them once a year at the AGM. When my students get to Black Belt then I would have to grade them with the Association - I can't get round that yet.

It's a dilemma which is causing myself some stress, but I think for now I am staying and seeing if I limit myself in public with the others, then I can still do my own thing and fly under the radar so to speak :)

Thanks for the post as i do find it interesting seeing what others who have left do and think.

Bob Davis
Bob Davis's picture

So the simple question is what are you gaining? what are you losing? Only you can answer that. 

From a personal viewpoint I can do without unnessary stress in my life (for reasons some will be aware of)  and you only have so much life to live so why not spend it doing what you want to do?  (once it's gone it's gone).

Gabriel Suarez
Gabriel Suarez's picture

I have been teaching martial systems in one form or another, and in various disciplines since 1976.  I recall leaving a US based Kyokushin group in the 1980s because politics became the focus rather than training.  While I have trained with a great number of people since then, I have resisted joining any associations.  My reasons are these.

1).  If you have substance and skill and some business sense, you do not need validation from a group.  I found Iain and Les online because of their material and not because of any association they may or may not belong to.  I saw their work, was impressed by them, and am watching continually.  One of my training partners and I hope to train with Iain when he returns to the USA (hint...cough...hint).

And while I think it is important to recognize the contributions of the founders, I find many associations getting credibility from them to have frozen everything in time and stifled any growth and development of the founder's work.  Things that you can rediscover on your own.

2).  In today's world, a single owner of a school can have a presence the size of the entire JKA...as long as he is a gifted teacher, is current, and has knowledge of both his system and of the online marketing world.  There is more to being a success in the teaching world than belonging to an association.

3).  Being educated used to revolve around joining an association and attending their "special training" and promotionals, etc.  Today one can train in any number of fighting systems at will.  A longtime martial student can learn a kata online...go to a seminar to learn the bunkai, extrapolate what he learned based on his life experience, and then train that with a few associates at home.  Personally I find the "institutional bunkai" taught in certain groups to not make much sense and be so limiting that no other possibles are even considered.  Leave the confines of that association and you are free to experiment.

Just some random thoughts.

tubbydrawers
tubbydrawers's picture

Bob Davis wrote:

So the simple question is what are you gaining? what are you losing? Only you can answer that

I am not sure what I gain - apart from insurance, belonging to a recognised association, but then some of the people - its like talking to a wall when we talk about changing the syllabus to show Bunkai or SD methods. What I would lose? - Some friends maybe - are they friends though or just Karate people I know!

When I trained with the KUGB back in the UK - I left 2 clubs due to politics and students trying to persuade the Instructor on what to do. Never really missed them. Maybe that is what will happen with these. It is pretty poor though that when I show something to students - not my own - other peoples - that they dismiss what I show when they go back to their normal class. I do find that quite annoying! Especially when they turn up to grade to Black Belt level they then show some outlandish bunkai.

My other question to those who made the leap of faith to do their own thing - how does it go with Black Belt Gradings - I know some people get others on their grading panel to show a non-biased view. But what happens if you can't get anyone to be that person, do people on here grade their students to higher black belt grades without having an external view point. What happens if that external person says the person who is grading is not ready but you think they are? Do you grade them anyway - if so - what is the point of having an external view?

Too many questions for something that might be quite easy to do!!

Thanks

tubbydrawers
tubbydrawers's picture

Gabriel Suarez wrote:

3).  Being educated used to revolve around joining an association and attending their "special training" and promotionals, etc.  Today one can train in any number of fighting systems at will.  A longtime martial student can learn a kata online...go to a seminar to learn the bunkai, extrapolate what he learned based on his life experience, and then train that with a few associates at home.  Personally I find the "institutional bunkai" taught in certain groups to not make much sense and be so limiting that no other possibles are even considered.  Leave the confines of that association and you are free to experiment.

Should have quoted this in my other post - DOH!

Anyway, that is one thing I do tend to do with myself and my son - in that we go and train with other styles or other people. Learn new things, kata. We or should I say myself , are looked down upon for doing this by certain people in our association. We both went to a Kumite seminar and we were the only 2 people from our own Association - it was actually held in one of our Dojo's !! So that was pretty funny.

As for the Bunkai - I have seen some outlandish ones - kicking knives out of peoples hands was a good one I saw - Heian Sandan it was said to be - this is the section where we do the knee lift and stand in Kiba Dachi. This was from an instructor at the club who insisted that the knee lift was the kick to disable the knife.

Think i am fighting a lost cause with some people.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

tubbydrawers wrote:
My other question to those who made the leap of faith to do their own thing - how does it go with Black Belt Gradings - I know some people get others on their grading panel to show a non-biased view.

I get asked to do this a lot; both by groups I do share a direct affiliation with (BCA, BCKA, WCA) and ones that I don’t. They want that external view; particularly with regards to the bunkai side of things in my case. It can also help when the head of an independent group has become a bottle neck i.e. they have a student / training partner who is a 3rd dan and wanting to grade to 4th, but the they themselves hold the rank of 4th. I’m therefore invited in to do the grading because a 7th dan grading someone to 4th dan is seen as more legitimate than a 4th dan grading someone to their own level.

tubbydrawers wrote:
What happens if that external person says the person who is grading is not ready but you think they are? Do you grade them anyway - if so - what is the point of having an external view?

We should only invite people onto the grading panel when we legitimately want and value their opinion. It also needs to be made clear if the external person is there to observe and offer a view, have a say as part of the group, or have the power of veto. I’ve done all of those. It has never arisen where I’ve suggested failing someone only for the head of the group to insist they pass. What has happened is that I’ve refused to sit on panels because I don’t believe the testing criteria is sufficient. The key is to have a grading process that everyone understands and buys into. That is probably easiest to achieve as apart of a group, but there is no reason why an independent can’t work with external individuals to acheive the same thing.

All the best,

Iain

tubbydrawers
tubbydrawers's picture

Finlay wrote:

Hello How many instructors here are independant or semi independant from larger organisations? By that I mean You design your own curriculum and grade your own students... up to a point at least. If you are willing to share, how did you become independent? What problems do you have with being independent? Last question is a little bit odd I guess, how do you feel about teaching forms or kata from a organised system but being independent. Thanks for any responses

Thought I would type my feelings in regards to the OP questions :)

As I stated In the other posts, I designed a syllabus with help from Iain. We still grade under the Association, but I grade my own students under MY syllabus but they get a certificate under the Associaiton not the WCA yet - I havnt got round to designing a certificate. I want my white belts to learn some bunkai, padwork, kata etc. If I graded my students with the big association gradings, then they would spend an hour punching air and there is no padwork, partner work for at least the first 4 to 5 gradings. Some people would think that is strange, but at the moment, I am not going to go out on my own. The asscociation do not know how I grade my students, they think i'm doing the main syllabus. I just think I'm doing a disservice to my students if I didnt grade them on their knowledge of bunkai, padwork, and other things.

As for teaching Kata - I came from a big association in the UK to one in Australia. The style is Shotokan, I basically teach the same Kata as the people I am with. There are some small differences, but Shotokan is Shotokan. So I Just teach the way I was taught to do the Kata. The association tend to follow books in regards to seeing how the kata is done. I look at books as well and videos, but I teach the way i was taught by people like Terry O'Neil, Enoeda, Andy Sherry, Frank Brennan etc. One of the main issues with the kata we have is that its not unified between the clubs in the association. So for me, I can teach say Heian Yondan one way and the other clubs could be teaching it another 5 or 6 different ways. So that is a problem, but I do not tend to worry about the differences too much. They are only small anyway.

So at the moment, I believe I am semi - independant. It might stay that way for a while, before I take the plunge and go. I do have to stay under the radar so to speak which makes things hard, but I am limiting myself from from the Association at certain events to help me deal with the stress from certain people. In saying that, I am training tonight with a couple of them!! But they are people I like :)

Hoep that helps.

Anf
Anf's picture
tubbydrawers wrote:

. What I would lose? - Some friends maybe - are they friends though or just Karate people I know!

I've thus far avoided contributing to this thread on account of I'm not an instructor, but this one point struck a cord.

I recently left a club that is affiliated with a large corporation/association. I lost a number of friends through my decision to leave (I left amicably and even thanked the chief instructor etc.).

Heres the thing. Usually when opinion is divided, it tends to be a bit fuzzy. Sweeping statements don't usually work. Not this time. It was very clear. Those devout to the association, whose only martial arts experience came from that association, and who had no interest in anything unless it was said by someone wearing the uniform and badges, made it absolutely clear that they wanted nothing to do with me. On the other hand, those that had shown interest in martial arts in general and had studied other styles or at least read the works of others outside the association, largely remained friendly, insofar as they might given the less frequent contact.

Based on my own experience, which is hardly comprehensive and nothing more than anecdotal, I believe your real friends will continue to be your friends. If someone falls out with you for breaking away from a particular entity, that's more their problem than yours.

Finlay
Finlay's picture

Hello,

Thanks fo all the great responses, gives me a lot to think about.

I guess i should say a little more about my situation, which drove me to ask the question. i will try to make it as brief as i can.

I started off many years ago in Taekwondo in the north of Scotland, through the training in patterns and attending seminars in other style i developed an interest in bunkai. I gained my blackbelt and instuctor certificate when i was 21 and largely taught from an applied point of view more than a sport style.

Due to my work, i traveled a little bit and trained in TKD in Russia and Italy for a bit before moving to China. While in China, I couldn't find a suitable place to train and had no time, language, or contacts to set up a school. I spent quite a number of years in China and studied some of the indigiunous systems before settling on Bagua in Beijing which i studied up until my teacher retired from teaching his style.

Krav maga opened in Beijing a few years later, I trained in KM and got my instuctor qualification and was one of the very few instuctors at that time.

While studying krav, a high ranking teacher of Balintawak arnis moved into my area. As well as studying krav i spent time studying his system (WOTBAG balintawak) I was awarded instuctor status in 2015 shortly before I left Beijin.

After Beijing, i moved to Indonesia where i planned ot teach Krav. I had a few students but overall people were more interested in learning the stick fighting style so i moved to predominately teaching Balintawak but with some elements of Krav maga and other styles added.

Through all this time, I have kept my taekwondo patterns and have put alot of what I have learnt into the patterns in the way of applications, I have written about this in my blog Tacticaltaekwondo.

Currenlty I live in Malaysia, and it is a lttle bit back to square 1.

I have thought of joining an organisation here, but I think i would get frustrated with the mainstream application in TKD and there is no Krav. I am still teaching Balintawak as well as some striking and pad work to people who are interested and I am teaching a krav seminar in a few weeks at a local gym.

Apologies for the long post,

It is my current situation that leads me to think of going it alone. 

Thank you for reading.