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Roman Ostien
Roman Ostien's picture
Pad-training for joint locks/breaks

Hello and greetings from Austria,

I would like to share a fun way to train joint locks. At least those that do not require small and subtle movements.

Video one shows a technique drill and video two shows the corresponding pad drill. The idea is to train the individual movements of a locking-technique like strikes, so we can (ideally) execute them in full range with full power. I also noted that executing the locks with those body dynamics makes them a lot harder to resist.

(I added english subtitles for all who struggle with my mumbled german.)

Please let me know what you think.

Fun historical fact: all three techniques are described in Joachim Meyers "Gründtliche Beschreibung der Kunst des Fechtens" from 1600.

 

Tau
Tau's picture

Some things I did a few years ago. Alternative ways of training joint locks:

 

Wastelander
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Nice work! I've done some similar things, but it's been a while

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Roman,

Delighted that you’ve joined us here!

Roman Ostien wrote:
I would like to share a fun way to train joint locks. At least those that do not require small and subtle movements …

I really like this use of modern kit to train “ancient techniques”. When we were chatting in Austria a few weeks ago, I asked you how such drills were received in the HEMA community … and I was pleasantly surprised to hear that there is an openness to them; which I can’t say I’ve always experienced in the karate community when it comes to modern kit. It seems there is a subset of karateka who are more anachronistic in their approach than those who are openly practising historic systems. I find that an interesting observation.

Roman Ostien wrote:
The idea is to train the individual movements of a locking-technique like strikes, so we can (ideally) execute them in full range with full power. I also noted that executing the locks with those body dynamics makes them a lot harder to resist.

It makes perfect sense to me because working with a person demands control, and that need to be corrected in the training matrix. Solo practise and visualisation (kata) is one strand, but there’s a lot of value in comparable body mechanics on the pads because the forces can be felt and tested … albeit in a differing way to actual application i.e. a strong pull becomes impact.

Roman Ostien wrote:
Fun historical fact: all three techniques are described in Joachim Meyers "Gründtliche Beschreibung der Kunst des Fechtens" from 1600.

I do find the HEMA stuff really interesting! Could you post an online link to the text so people can check it out if they wish?

All the best,

Iain

Roman Ostien
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Iain Abernethy wrote:
Could you post an online link to the text so people can check it out if they wish?

I am working with a transcription of the original german text. Unfortunately I could not find a free englisch translation online. Wiktenauer.com is usually a very good source but the dagger section of Joachim Meyer (https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Joachim_Meyer) is a massive hole.

However, what I can do is post the sections that I used with my own almost nearly accurate translations. So here we go.

First Part

https://wiktenauer.com/images/7/78/Meyer_1570_Dagger_B.png

Old German: Merk im Zufechten geht einer auff dich mit einem Oberstich / so unterfahr jm seine Hand nach also hoch in der lufft / behalt jm also sein Hand mit deiner Lincken in der höhe / greiff behend mit deiner rechten sampt dem Dolchen under seinem rechten Arm durch / komme damit der Lincken zu hilff / wie du solchen an den grössern Bossen in der jetz gedachten Figur B sehen kanst / zugleich in dem du also durch griffen hast / so tritt mit deinem rechten wol hinder seinen rechten Schenckel / unnd schlieffe underdeß mit deinem Kopff under seinem rechten Arm durch / wird jhn also uberruck / oder brich jm den Arm.

English: When you are fighting from a distance and he attacks you with a stab from above, go under his hand while it is still up in the air. Keep it high with you left hand. Go with your right hand (and your dagger) under his right arm to help your left hand, as you can see in the illustration. Simultaneously step with your right left behind his right leg. Come close* with your head under and through his right arm, throw him on his back or break his arm.

* for the longest time "unnd schlieffe underdeß mit deinem Kopff under seinem rechten Arm durch" was a real headache, because I had no idea what he meant with that because I don't know the word "schlieffe". My theory is that it is an error in the transcription and it should be "schließße/schließe", which would mean "to close" or "to come close" in this context.

So the technique would roughly resemble the end of this aikido throw (whose name I can't remember):

But it can still work when you omit the last step.

Roman Ostien
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First Part - Setup

Old German: Stehe mit dem lincken Fuß vor / und halt dein Lincke Hand auff der Brust / sticht er er dir demnach gegen deiner Kehl / so versetz jhm den stich starck von deiner Brust / auff das Glid hinder dem Dolch / und in der Versatzung begreiff sein rechte Hand mit deiner Lincken / unnd mit deinem rechten Arm greiff unden durch / hinder seinem Elenbogen umb seinen rechten Arm / und trit vor mit deinem rechten Bein / und wend dich auff dein rechte Seiten kurtz umb / und wirff jn über dein recht Bein.

English: Stand with your left foot forward and hold your left hand on your chest. When he stabs towards your throat, block his stab from your chest to his limb behind the dagger [i.e. his hand/wrist]. And while you are blocking, grab his right hand with your left hand and grab around his right arm with your right arm from below, behind his elbow. Step forward with your right leg, turn to your right side quickly/shortly and throw him over your right leg.

He describes (in my opinion) a basic winding throw. The interesting part for me was "turn to your right side quickly/shortly" after grabbing the opponents' right arm, which I interpret as a forceful yank to break his posture and make the following technique easier.

Roman Ostien
Roman Ostien's picture

Second Part

Old German : Item ein anders / sticht er dir nach dem Halß / das versetz als vor / unnd in der versatzung fahr mit deiner lincken Hand aussen unden umb seinen rechten Arm / also das du mit deiner lincken Hand wider von unden auff wider an dein Brust kommest / und mit deiner rechten Hand greiff under sein Elenbogen / und heb also von unden auff so brichstu jme den Arm.

English: Something else. When he stabs towards your throat, block this lie before [from your chest to his attacking hand with your left hand] and while blocking, bring your left hand around his right arm outwards and down, so you come with your left hand to your chest from below. And grab his elbow from below with your right hand and push upwards to break his arm.

"break his arm" could be interpreted as attacking the elbow of a straightened arm, but I think the word "arm" is used to also include the shoulder joint, which would mean the opponents' arm is bent. We tested both versions and the bent version works reliably against resistance, whereas the other version does not. At least for me.

Roman Ostien
Roman Ostien's picture

Third Part

Old German: Im zufechten sticht dir einer von Oben / so fahr auff mit deiner lincken verkehrten Hand / und fang jm sein rechte Hand hinder deinem Dolchem bey dem Glid / reib jm die umb von dir / und trit mit dem rechten Fuß wol zu jm / zugleich in dem du also zu tritst / dieselbige weil fahr mit deinem rechten Arm under seinem durch / und hebe ubersich so brichstu jm den Arm / Auch kannstu aller hand stuck es sey mit dem Dolchen oder sonst mit Ringen auff jn treiben.

English: When you are fighting from a distance and someone stabs from above, move upwards with your reversed left hand* and catch his right hand at the wrist. Jerk it away from you and step with your right foot towards him. Simultaneously drive your right arm beneath his arm and raise ist up to break his arm. You can also use a lot of other techniques, either with a dagger oder wrestling techniques.

*in other descriptions Meyer clarifies that "reversed hand" means that the edge of the hand points upwards and the thumb down.

Roman Ostien
Roman Ostien's picture

Golly, that became a lot longer than I thought.

In the meantime I found an english translation of Meyers whole book. Not the version I studied from 1600 but an earlier one from 1570, but they should be very similar.

http://www.adelaideswordacademy.com/uploads/1/0/7/0/10705704/forgeng-meyer_english_translation.pdf

The dagger section starts at page 217 and contains a wrestling section, starting at page 228.

If someone wants to compare my translation with a propably less biased one, the descriptions can be found here;

first part: page 219, 3.3r.2

first part - setup: page 223, 3.8v.4

second part: page 223, 3.9r.1

third part: page 225, 3.10v.1

All the best,

Roman

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Roman Ostien wrote:
I am working with a transcription of the original german text. Unfortunately I could not find a free English translation online …

… However, what I can do is post the sections that I used with my own almost nearly accurate translations. So here we go.

This is fascinating info! Thanks for sharing Roman! Most kind.

All the best,

Iain

Steve Gombosi
Steve Gombosi's picture

The first aikido throw you're showing is shiho-nage (four corner throw). The technique you're doing seems closer to Daito-ryu Akijutsu's ude garami (arm entanglement):

 

This lock (with the same name) is also done in Judo, typically as a pin. It's known in modern Western wrestling as a "figure four armlock",

This identical technique is also present in quite a few Tomari-te karate kata (especially the Tomari version of Rohai).

Human anatomy is the same everywhere, so it's not really surprising that similar solutions to similar problems have been developed in multiple cultures.