14 posts / 0 new
Last post
nielmag
nielmag's picture
Backfist

Wanted to get some thoughts about effectiveness of backfist in self protection context?   in kata in the style i practice there are backfists (ie Heian Sandan, Jion etc)  Outside of kata, never really trained backfist on mitts/bag etc i tyically used a jab vs backfist.   I have limited experience w this technique but I think you can use it as a more stunning technique/maybe break someone's nose?   but wanted to see what other folks thought about using backfist in terms self protection and if anyone really trains it w mitts/bags, "pressure tests" it kata based sparring etc?

deltabluesman
deltabluesman's picture

I think the backfist has a place in the toolkit but it's very limited.  I consider it a distraction to set up other techniques and wouldn't spend much time drilling it or training it.  I will throw out this idea for Heian Sandan.  Let's say you're using the cross-buttocks throw bunkai for that section, shown here:  https://youtu.be/BGvIvKyLanc?t=213.  If he slips his head out of the headlock before you are able to throw him, I could see the point of popping him with the back fist quickly (just as a distraction) before diving back into the clinch and trying again.  But even then, it's more powerful to throw the straight right (as Iain does in that clip, here:  https://youtu.be/BGvIvKyLanc?t=217).  So, I wouldn't throw it out entirely, but I'd definitely consider it a very limited tool.

Just my two cents.

colby
colby's picture

I mean I've never been one to say a technique doesn't work or anything. Theres a lot you can do with it, but does it feel good to you. Do you like the movement, is there a kata in your system that you like that have them in its framework?

Tau
Tau's picture

Love it. As with anything it's the right tool for the job. I would clarify not the backfirst specifically but back handed strikes generally. Consider the open-hand "backfist" of Tekki

Heath White
Heath White's picture

I  think there are two kinds of backfists.  A whipping or snapping backfist--think Muhummad Ali's jab--which is mostly a distraction.  And then a smashing , follow-through backfist.  I think this latter is the technique in  most forms, but I suspect that it requires some form of iron palm training to really work.

Examples:  In Pinan/Heian/Pyongan 3, Funakoshi has an application where you use the front elbow as a strike.  If  you treat this as a strike across the face, then a backfist is a natural recovery motion from the elbow strike.  Another application from  Daniel Pyatt (see YouTube) is that the rear hand holds his arm out, and the front elbow breaks it or at least projects him forward.  The backfist will catch him as he reacts to this movement.  Both would hurt, a lot.  

In Heian/Pyongan 4 and 5, the backfist in the cross-legged stance is delivered with dropping weight, straight down.  The idea would be to smash right through the bridge of the nose.  Something similar for the first move of Bassai.

But when I have  tried to strike with the back of my hand, it hurts!  Those are relatively small bones, and not a lot of padding on them.  My guess is that you have to develop this strike.  Standard iron palm training hits palm, back, outer edge, and finger tips, and I have seen people break concrete with the backs of their hands.  So I know it can be done.  But it might  be one of those things that 21st-c western hands are not often developed well enough to do.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

I’m not a fan of the snapping horizonal backfist in a context were impact is a factor i.e. away from points fighting. I do like the dropping backfist we see in kata though. The first generally does not have the mass to make a meaningful impact (although that can be improved if you rotate into it and don’t snap).  The second has plenty of impact.

I remember an early session training under Geoff Thompson when one of the other participants used a horizontal backfit during the practise of pre-emption against groups. Geoff told him the technique was inappropriate, but the participant argued, “I recon I can make his eyes water”. Geoff countered, “then read him some sad poetry or peel an onion in front of him”. Made us all laugh and certainly stuck with us.

All the best,

Iain

nielmag
nielmag's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
I remember an early session training under Geoff Thompson when one of the other participants used a horizontal backfit during the practise of pre-emption against groups. Geoff told him the technique was inappropriate, but the participant argued, “I recon I can make his eyes water”. Geoff countered, “then read him some sad poetry or peel an onion in front of him”. Made us all laugh and certainly stuck with us.

That's great!  Thanks for the input everyone, confirms what I had been thinking, but always try to be open minded!

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

The backfist itself is ok, here and there maybe.

However, there are lots of places in Kata that show something like a backfist where if you adjust range etc. you can just as easily (for example) apply a forearm strike to the neck, jaw or similar, which I feel is generally far more effective than a backfist, though of course not in every instance, there are certainly places where a backfist is a backfist. I don't  think that evey place they show up (Geki Sai kata is a good example) you are meant to assume it is always a strike with the back of the hand..the limb making that kind of motion can often do all kinds of other (often more useful) things.

Haven't done the Pinan/Heian series actively in years, but whatever the one is where you have the simultaneous side kick or front kick with a backfist..that is a good example of this. If you adjust your range to something more combative and execute a lowish front or side kick followed by a "backfist", it can just as easily be the sort of neck/jaw strike I am talking about, and it makes more sense combatively, as the persons head drops from the low kick. This is also how I use most of the places in Goju Ryu kata that appear to be a backfist following an uppercut or driving elbow strike.

So, I feel like the snapping backfist sort of motion is an ok strike in some contexts - quick, short motion where you can't get much else off I suppose..but generally I think it's a technique that likely came to prominence because it works so well as a setup in long range dojo sparring, not because of actual combative utility.

Steve Gombosi
Steve Gombosi's picture

About 25 years ago, I accidentally knocked someone out with a (very short) backfist while free-sparring (something I don't do very often). It's surprisingly effective in the right context.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Steve Gombosi wrote:
About 25 years ago, I accidentally knocked someone out with a (very short) backfist while free-sparring (something I don't do very often). It's surprisingly effective in the right context.

I think we need to be careful when we extrapolate single experiences. For example, I once KO’d someone by throwing a head height roundhouse kick from the floor. They were standing. I was on the floor. I rolled on to one shoulder threw the kick and it connected really well. The guy dropped like a felled tree. I’d never advise it though; despite how well it worked. I consider it an ineffective and ill-advised action that I was lucky enough to get away with.

A short back fist is generally going to lack stopping power. Sure, there will be exceptions from time to time when the “stars align” just right. However, I do think we need to be careful about advising people to use such methods – especially in self-protection – on the basis of unusual events. One of those “the exception that proves the rule” things.

We are not saying is can’t work. We are saying it’s unlikely to work. We should therefore stick to higher-percentage methods.

All the best,

Iain

colby
colby's picture

While I was eating lunch today I saw this and thought it might add a little to the discussion. Specifically in regards to the act of using back fist like motions and a reason why you might spin as well. Anyways, figured it might be kinda neat.

shughes
shughes's picture

Are there any situations where you would use a backfist where a hammerfist wouldn't also work?

I'm not a fan of backfists. The structure of it makes me nervous, and I worry that the hand ends up in a position exposing the small bones on the back that could easily be injured if distance or timing is slightly misjudged. A hammerfist seems to accomplish the same goal while having fewer opportunities for things to go wrong.

Josh Pittman
Josh Pittman's picture

Once, when I was sparring, I realized that I was using the backfist technique a lot without thinking about it. I decided that, since it's instinctive, I would try to find a use for it in self-defense instead of trying to suppress it. My best idea was to use it as a range-finder and drill my muscle memory to always follow up with a cross. Essentially, then, it became a datum-setting tool, the way that Iain uses the knife-hand after the armbar here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptpALIuZBwQ

What does everyone think? Adviseable? Foolish? Sometimes suppressing one's own inclinations is better...

Nate Tam
Nate Tam's picture

I personally use it very rarely when sparring, mostly cause it's a difficult technique to use effectively. 

In a karate setting, I might use it as a leading attack in a combination, but then you also have other options like kizami zuiki. It does however flow pretty nicely if you're ever turned around and stepping in with the front foot as you'd strike with the same side hand- like after a spinning back kick, or anything with that same turning motion.

You can always use it lightly and more frequent like a boxers flicker jab. I think that method is probably better suited outside of a karate setting though.

The heaver version of this that Iain referred to coming down onto your opponent is useful I think to give your mass a point of focus to deliver the mechanics into a target, but I'd probably never use it in a self defense situation. The only exception I can think of is if I'm in close proximity to my opponent and he's on the outside of my front shoulder/almost behind you (bad for you). In this case if you need to make distance or have a clear shot and can't reposition yourself, this could be one of the only strikes that work in close range and still be powerful enough to get your opponent away/down.