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Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture
Naihanchi Dachi - Itosu Bowed Legs?

Hi all, I came across this interesting article by Andreas Quast, translating Toma Jugo memoir. "Tōma Jūgō – Karate as a Physical Education Subject in Secondary School" In this article is description of Itosu, stating he had massive bowed legs. Would this be the reason for Naihanchi Dachi inward toes? In comparison Naihanchi Tachimura version is in shiko Dachi. I find it interesting that there is possibility that students were learning monkey see monkey do instead being instructed with explanation.(This is just speculation) http://ryukyu-bugei.com/?p=8553

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

It's an interesting theory. Personally, I tend to think that kiba-dachi is more a result of bow-leggedness than Naihanchi-dachi; take a look at Motobu Choki's Naihanchi, for example, and you will see that he has his feet pointed forward with his knees over his ankles. His stance is much narrower and higher than modern kiba-dachi, but it's essentially the same sort of posture, and much easier to do when one is bow-legged. Naihanchi-dachi, on the other hand, has the knees turned inward along with the feet, so that they track in the same plane. More likely, in my mind, is that Itosu adapted Naihanchi based on his experiences with Naha-te under Nagahama--basically, merging Sanchin concepts into Naihanchi. This isn't terribly surprising when you also consider the fact that he introduced shime into Naihanchi practice.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Interesting! It would strike me as unlikely that students would be encouraged to mimic their teacher’s inherent physical characteristics. It’s not impossible, but Occam’s Razor would have us concluded that the toes are in slightly because that’s the way he wanted it done. For it to be otherwise the students would have had to mimic something without instruction to do so, and then Itosu never corrected it at any point.

Due to the relative dimensions of my arms and torso (think T-Rex) my elbows can’t make it far inside my bodyline. For the kata motions that demand that, I point out the restrictions of my build to students and encourage them to do it in the optimal way, as opposed to the sub-optimal way genetics enforces upon me. There may have been more of a culture of conformity in the past – i.e. do exactly as sensei does and don’t ask questions – but even then, I’m doubtful it would be to the point where ailments and physical idiosyncrasies were copied and uncorrected to such a degree.

To me, the toes are in simply so they point in the same direction as the knees. This facilitates hip motion in a natural way with no stress on the knee joint. I do see some pull the feet in too far which can make it painful and unnatural. However, I think a mild incline means feet knee and hips are all rotating the same way … and that’s why it’s done that way.

As an aside, have I missed a newly confirmed picture of Itosu? The linked article has a photo captioned, “An eldery Itosu Ankō, leaning on a walking stick.” It was not along ago that the picture previously believed to be Itosu was instead suspected to be one “Sango Miyake”:

https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/itosu-anko-still-not-identified

Are we sure this photo is “an eldery Itosu Ankō” and is anyone aware of the evidence for this?

All the best,

Iain

All the best,

Iain

Nimrod Nir
Nimrod Nir's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
Are we sure this photo is “an eldery Itosu Ankō” and is anyone aware of the evidence for this?

Ha! The Itosu identity mystery continues.

I love it!

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Wastelander

Personally, I tend to think that kiba-dachi is more a result of bow-leggedness than Naihanchi-dach

I think that you might be right, it is more likely with the kiba dachi. 

Iain 

 For it to be otherwise the students would have had to mimic something without instruction to do so, and then Itosu never corrected it at any point.

I'm sure that Itosu would correct students, but on other hand how many heard, seen or experience the teacher who just shown and not explain. With advice "If you train long enough, the technique will reveal itself".  I think that could be a factor in feudal society.

As an aside, have I missed a newly confirmed picture of Itosu? The linked article has a photo captioned, “An eldery Itosu Ankō, leaning on a walking stick.” It was not along ago that the picture previously believed to be Itosu was instead suspected to be one “Sango Miyake”:

No clue, I have not came across any new information about image of Itosu. 

Kind regards

Les

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Les,

Les Bubka wrote:
I'm sure that Itosu would correct students, but on other hand how many heard, seen or experience the teacher who just shown and not explain. With advice "If you train long enough, the technique will reveal itself".  I think that could be a factor in feudal society.

We can’t discount that, but it was really the generation after Itosu who adopted a more “military style” training format. The likes of Funakoshi, Mabuni, Motobu, Chibana, etc all learnt from him in more informal, small training groups. I find it unlikely that all of them copied along and were not corrected in that setting. When we start to get the very big groups of “budo karate” in the universities then “follow along and don’t ask” would be more prevalent.

It’s also worth noting that Motobu does critique Itosu’s stance in Naihanchi; not for the angle of the feet, but the tension in the stance:

“When standing in hachimonji (figure 8 stance i.e. 八), these days it is generally taught to squeeze the soles of the feet together and apply strength to tighten the insides of the legs … This form is used exclusively by those in the Itosu lineage … It you try this, you can be easily be pushed over. This tension has no effect no matter how much tension you put into the posture. Kata should be taught as close as possible to its application, and not altered for physical training purposes. It is unacceptable that a kata be passed on in a way that is removed from reality. Therefore, I can not approve of the squeezing of the feet together.”

Motobu tells us that Matsumura also did not approve of Itous’s stance. The inference is that Itosu altered it for training physical purposes; and that this was not approved of by Motobu and Matsumura. There’s nothing said about the feet position through. This is could be because there was nothing unusual about it; or at least nothing deemed worthy of note or criticism.

All the best,

Iain

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Hi Iain,

Sure its all speculation :) 

Kind regards

Heath White
Heath White's picture

Where does the Motobu quote come from?  I'd like to read up on this.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

The way it is taught, at least the way it was taught to me, is exactly as Iain says--the turned-in feet allow the knees to track in-line with the toes as you engage the hips for rotational power.

With regard to foot position, I do recall some statement Motobu made about not liking Itosu's "pigeon-footed stance," but I don't know how accurate the translation was, and even if it was accurate, it doesn't necessarily mean that there was any technical issue with the foot position. I will say that shiko-dachi is more than likely the intended stance for Naihanchi, though, based on photos of Yabu Kentsu teaching Naihanchi in shiko-dachi, photos of Funakoshi Gichin working Naihanchi Nidan and Sandan in shiko-dachi, plus the KishimotoDi, Okinawa Kenpo, and Matsumura Seito versions that still use shiko-dachi for the kata. Interestingly, since the idea of changing the stance for training purposes to be different from the stance in application; from what I have seen, most people actually DO naturally switch to shiko-dachi when they work Naihanchi applications, unless they are very intentionally using the stance position to break the opponent's structure. Indeed, even Motobu, himself, used shiko-dachi in Naihanchi application from time to time, as did Konishi Yasuhiro when the two of them trained together and took some photos.

As to the picture of Itosu, the Okinawan Karate Information Center at the Karate Kaikan on Okinawa did recently confirm that the picture everyone thought was Itosu was actually Sango, but they also determined with more confidence that the man in the new photo is Itosu. Before, the determination was made based on a couple elderly peoples' recollections of Itosu, which they admitted could have been off, but this time there were written names accompanying the picture, and while they admit it is still possible that they mis-aligned the name and person, or that they are missing some other piece of context, but they are more confident about their identification this time around.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Heath White wrote:
Where does the Motobu quote come from?  I'd like to read up on this.

It’s from his book, “Karate: My Art”. This new translation is a good read:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Skill-Karate-Ryukyu-Bugei/dp/B0849Z3J7S/

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Skill-Karate-Ryukyu-Bugei/dp/B0849Z3J7S/

All the best,

Iain

Hayashi Tomio
Hayashi Tomio's picture

NEIHANCHI RESEARCH

I came across this thread by happenchance doing research for my next book and thought I’d throw some thoughts this way in regard to the Neihanchi stance and kata.

I’ve been a career teacher of Okinawan karate for over fifty years. Like most professionals, I’ve sought to understand the how’s and why of our kata. I practice an isshinryu variant of Neihanchi. I’d like to clear up what I perceive are some misunderstandings and perhaps, misassumptions in regard to this stance. We all want to know why past masters chose their particular stance over other postures, which should bring us to our own experiential confirmations or validations of a stance or footwork. There is what one is trying to do with the stance and how one is trying to do it. We have multiple historical, sometimes conflicting, perspectives that, at the very least, should give us a springboard for our own trials.

There are a number of hurdles when looking at the past use of the Neihanchi stance(s), to understand our current use of the posture, as they vary amongst styles. I reference the 2020 translation of Choki Motobu’s, My Art And Skill Of Karate, to illustrate one such hurdle. Anyone who translates the work of a highly skilled expert, who is not at that same level of skill or not indoctrinated in the ‘house’ language of that artist’s community will often experience ‘The curse of a lack of insider knowledge.’ It is known by historical researchers of Asian works as a ‘Twilight’ language.  I could analogize this situation to a Cartesian scientist translating the high-end work of a quantum physicist. 

My expertise lies in the internal structure of a martial art. Neihanchi stance is the externalization of a principle regarding Ki manipulation for specific strength increases relative to the kata’s bunkai. This principle can be expressed through multiple formulas, which is why we have variations of the Neihanchi stance. Some Neihanchi’s do not adhere to any bioenergetic formula, hence, their success relies entirely on external strength to successfully execute its bunkai. However, when you assume any martial posture, there is an immediate shift in the body’s electro-magnetic field currents. These biofield currents will distribute a charge to specific muscles for the specific task. Foot positioning is part of this distribution system. All internal footwork will follow a proportionality formula. Following this internal formula, Neihanchi stance begins with its narrowest posture, assumed from a Musubu dachi or feet v’d on a 90 degree angle, accompanied by moving the heels outward until the toes point inward no more than 45 degrees. Beyond 45 degrees results in a polarity shift (reversal of current flow) leading to a weakness in application. Done correctly, the posture will distribute a strong current in support of either/or both arm(s) rising upward and rotation of the torso. The debate I see some engaged in, trying to determine if the Kiba dachi or narrower versions are the correct postures, is moot, if one does not understand how the body’s electro-magnetic field is affected by the footwork. Without a ki-decoder, it will remain a guess for many. This is not the language of the old-world masters. This is an emerging new language describing, on the quantum level, what is going on beneath the surface technique.

Regarding bowed legs, this might be of interest; I have bowed legs. While pursuing body work with a Structural Integrationist (formally, Rolfing) we discussed my bowed legs. The therapist was convinced my condition was the result of my years of karate stancework, particularly with the Seisan dachi, which is served best by pushing the knees outward when striking. I found this observation somewhat peculiar, for I have many three-decade plus senior students who do not have bowed legs. The bow does make certain stances easier for me, but this does not infer my technique is superior as a result, nor have I found that certain physical anomalies definitively negate other’s abilities. The body’s electrical system is quite adaptable. It will simply direct internal energy by a different route, allowing one to be just as potent.    

My organization has been investigating martial postures and their energetic polarities for thirty years. Our observation is that Neihanchi stance is a principle which can be expressed in (at least) three manners; the narrow posture I described above, a less wide Kiba dachi, which I call Funakoshi’s Tekki or Iron Horse posture (also Motobu’s), as long as one puts pressure on the balls of the feet pulling inward [my emphasis]. (The feet themselves do not need to move but they remain parallel), or a full Kiba dachi (as long as one puts pressure on the heels of the feet pressing outward). Between the widest Neihanchi formula and the narrowest, different applications are implied, the narrower stance implies a grappling exchange, the wider stance, a ballistic response. All the above is easily testable to see its efficacy—if you know what you are testing for. The outcomes of these positions result in dramatic increases in strength, but they are task specific.

In regard to translations, when Motobu states he disagreed with Itosu’s tightening the soles of his feet for he could easily push someone over doing so, may have been the wrong test altogether. We don't know if the translator captured Itosu’s house language as to the nature of his tension. Tensing one’s soles is too subjective a statement. Exactly how did Itosu tense his feet? And what was the sequencing of this tension, which would make a difference? Did the tension begin focused on the inside, outside, balls, heels, etc? We don’t know if Itosu’s kata variant or bunkai was exactly Motobu’s, because moves preceding any foot tension will affect the strength outcome in the upper limbs. We also do not know if there was some level of bias/competition between the two men misleading our own comprehension of their kata performance.

Knowledge of the internal tension sequence is a way of reverse engineering intended bunkai.  For example, Shimabuku, (isshinryu’s founder), outlined a specific tension sequence for his Sanchin kata, indicating one could cause problems (strength loss) if moves were done out of sequence.

Bunkai using the correct internal formula is superior to bunkai using purely biomechanical means. However, this is not an insinuation the later is ineffective, but only that it is not fully representative of the level of wisdom inherent in the essential kata of Asia.  

It would be too lengthy to break all this down here, so I will conclude that Kata’s internal technique is a lost art today, which I would like to see restored and reinfused back into Traditional Forms with more explication. Yours on the Path, Hayashi, Shifu               

 

 

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

What empirical evidence do you have to support your proposal that these (or any) postures manipulate the body's bio-magnetic field? Or that the human bio-magnetic field, which is incredibly weak, has any impact on the application of combative techniques? Or that one can change the polarity of the human bio-magnetic field? I would be very interested to see the studies that support these claims.

Hayashi Tomio
Hayashi Tomio's picture

Greetings. Bear with me on responses. I've got a lot on my plate. This is a complex subject which will be properly presented in my next work. I have thirty years of recorded anecdotal observations specifically looking at this topic. Subjects have ranged from 10-90 years old, across a variety of martial systems and skill levels. In a conversation with a noted biophysicist familiar with studies on the human biofield, I was told no one she was aware of had or was doing any such study and expressed an interest in my research. This scientist, through a Rockefeller grant, had already proven that individuals can emit increased photons at will. Hers is not the only organization investigating biofield effects. This is pioneering science at the moment.

Regardless, I have been gifted with a highly educated and skilled senior body comprised of engineers, Phd.s, acupuncturist, psychologists, etc. They don't cut me any slack. Notably, the engineers were most skeptical, asking the same questions as yourself—until they experienced it. They could not deny the effects even though they couldn't find a scientific rationale. They even tested outside of my organization with the same outcomes. 

If I had to place this in a crude context, imagine you asked me what science supports that my punching you in the face had any deleterious effect on your body, I think the two of us would laugh. True, this subject is far more subtle, but the outcomes are not subtle. The problem I encounter is that talking about it doesn't do it justice. And showing it in a video is no better. It just doesn't look real. I've been studying outcomes and effects of specific martial movements and movement sets. Biomechanical rationales don't fit what we are experiencing. I am aligned with the scientific community's theory of electro-magnetism and/or biophotonic communication behind the phenomena. That the biomagnetic filed is weak is insignificant next to its ability as a signaling mechanism. For example, studies have observed that our heart's electro magnetic field is detected up to 15 feet away in other's biofields (see entrainment). In the future, we hope to engage a willing scientist to validate our hypothesis. In the meantime, we continue to gain breakthrough observations about the specific compositions of Traditional fighting forms that are undeniable.  Yours, Hayashi 

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Can you provide a link to the study you're referring to, with regard to photon emission? The closest I've found is this, which is, perhaps, what you are referring to?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2005290110600416?via%...

That study seems to be based upon the work of a previous study (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1011134419302982?via%...), and as far as I can tell from looking them over, there is no evidence that this photon emission has any effect besides being able to be picked up on specialized imaging, which scientists are interested to use in the diagnosis of diseases and disorders that may have similar effects. I'm not sure how that is proof of your concept? I'm also curious to see the studies regarding the heart detecting other electromagnetic fields--the closest I could find was a study indicating that Reiki does not affect the human electromagnetic field.

Are you willing to disclose the names of the doctors, engineers, etc. that are working with you on your research? I would be interested to discuss the subject with them, firsthand. I have discussed such topics with doctors, engineers, and scientists of various fields, myself, and I can't say that they have ever professed any belief in claims such as those you're presenting, so it would be an educational and interesting discussion, I'm sure.

Hayashi Tomio
Hayashi Tomio's picture

In regard to the study you cite, I’m not sure how it’s not proof of my position. I don't see any conclusive testing directly related to my assertion. In fact, the authors cite, ‘New diagnostic principles and techniques which are able to detect subtle changes in a biologic system are needed.’ In my case, absence of evidence is not evidence of lack.

Not to distract from your personal interest in the hard science, but I have been investigating the behaviors of martial postures and movement sets on physical strength that fall outside of known biomechanical principles. There is no science currently investigating the biofield’s effects on bodies interacting in this manner.

I am also not writing a scientific paper, though it might interest some scientists what we have witnessed and experienced. And, I’d be happy to have any scientist take a serious look at what we are doing to validate my hypothesis, which I am quite certain will fall into biofield manipulation. To date, as you have correctly stated, the majority of scientific study is primarily interested in, and strongly funding, the study the biofield’s medical implications.

I’ll reiterate a comment in my last post; Talking about the behaviors I have been testing pales in convictive power to experiencing it. Trying to find the science, no less the instrumentation for testing, is putting the cart before the horse. The behaviors remain intact and repeatable. That you can’t find any clear proof of what I am saying is inconsequential to me. That I am pointing to an electro-magnetic and/or photonic signaling mechanism is a strongly logical postulate. I’m simply sharing a relatively unknown factor in martial practices. I don't put hard science in front of me to validate my proceeding. Science begins with critical observation. Theory follows. Science is mostly theory anyway, constantly subjected to revision as testing instrumentation improves. I would love nothing more than an instrument or means to measure and explain what is occuring.

I am a martial artist first and foremost. I appreciate your scientific inquiry. However, it’s not the dogmatic perspective I am on a campaign to convince or am appealing to. I am offering martial artists an enhancement of practical results by unusual means. I am not sure you fully grasp what it is we are doing here. But that’s not surprising, because I’ve met very experienced martial artists who have never considered our perspective and professed their own levels of incredulity until they experienced it for themselves.  Yours, Hayashi 

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Hayashi Tomio wrote:

In regard to the study you cite, I’m not sure how it’s not proof of my position. I don't see any conclusive testing directly related to my assertion. In fact, the authors cite, ‘New diagnostic principles and techniques which are able to detect subtle changes in a biologic system are needed.’ In my case, absence of evidence is not evidence of lack.

Not to distract from your personal interest in the hard science, but I have been investigating the behaviors of martial postures and movement sets on physical strength that fall outside of known biomechanical principles. There is no science currently investigating the biofield’s effects on bodies interacting in this manner.

I am also not writing a scientific paper, though it might interest some scientists what we have witnessed and experienced. And, I’d be happy to have any scientist take a serious look at what we are doing to validate my hypothesis, which I am quite certain will fall into biofield manipulation. To date, as you have correctly stated, the majority of scientific study is primarily interested in, and strongly funding, the study the biofield’s medical implications.

I’ll reiterate a comment in my last post; Talking about the behaviors I have been testing pales in convictive power to experiencing it. Trying to find the science, no less the instrumentation for testing, is putting the cart before the horse. The behaviors remain intact and repeatable. That you can’t find any clear proof of what I am saying is inconsequential to me. That I am pointing to an electro-magnetic and/or photonic signaling mechanism is a strongly logical postulate. I’m simply sharing a relatively unknown factor in martial practices. I don't put hard science in front of me to validate my proceeding. Science begins with critical observation. Theory follows. Science is mostly theory anyway, constantly subjected to revision as testing instrumentation improves. I would love nothing more than an instrument or means to measure and explain what is occuring.

I am a martial artist first and foremost. I appreciate your scientific inquiry. However, it’s not the dogmatic perspective I am on a campaign to convince or am appealing to. I am offering martial artists an enhancement of practical results by unusual means. I am not sure you fully grasp what it is we are doing here. But that’s not surprising, because I’ve met very experienced martial artists who have never considered our perspective and professed their own levels of incredulity until they experienced it for themselves.  Yours, Hayashi 

You have made a claim--that specific martial postures can manipulate the biofield of the body and have an effect on techniques as they are applied to another person--which you suggest is supported by those who work in scientific fields. The burden of proof is on you to support your claim with evidence, and that study does not do that. You mention observations, but have provided no record of these observations and their associated metrics. I've asked for references, and you've not provided those.I've asked for references, and you've not provided those. You have, essentially, claimed that magic exists, but only you can use it and teach it. You must understand how that comes across? Now, I can concede that, as Arthur C. Clarke said, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic," but at least there would be evidence that the magic is actually being done. Can you, at the very least, provide video of you demonstrating this on someone you don't train with? If you can't provide the evidence to support your claim, why even make the claim? You shouldn't expect people to believe you simply because of the amount of time you've trained in martial arts, or that you've taken a Japanese name as part of your studies, after all.

I understand that you aren't "on a campaign to convince," but you're making quite an extraordinary claim, which apparently cannot be supported by scientific study, and one that isn't too dissimilar from claims others have made and been proven to be fraudulent. I have met and trained with people who claimed to be able to manipulate energy, and they could do nothing to me the typical biomechanics and physics can't explain. Anything they tried that would have defied those fundamentals simply did nothing, at all. I've seen countless examples of such claims being debunked. Skepticism is an important aspect of learning, in my opinion, and I'm merely expressing that, here. I realize that it may be coming off as confrontational, but I honestly am interested in seeing the evidence to support your claim, because it would be quite remarkable if what you claim is true. 

Hayashi Tomio
Hayashi Tomio's picture

Let me put this in a polite and simple context which you appear to be veering left of. I don't know you. I don't jump because you request the evidence behind my theories. That comes on my terms, not yours. For one, you aren’t listening well. I’ve already stated, you will not find proof nor disproof for what I am asserting. Additionally, this subject matter cannot be studied under the current scientific paradigm similar to the way quantum physicists have no objective means to qualify or quantify the effect of consciousness at the subatomic level. Where you veer off track is that somehow because something has been debunked in regard to Ki manipulation, or that no one has worked this something on you, or that somehow, I must be working with this same something, and the innuendo that my formal Buddhist name is an attempt to lend more credibility to my research, fixes you in the light of a rigid mindset not getting his way. You are obviously unfamiliar with some of my videos. You also grossly misassume that I am the only one making these observations, or that I am making these claims simply on the basis of my years in the arts.  Your assumptions about my research have no ground in the reality of what we are testing. At no time have you ever asked me what we are testing for, how we test, and why we feel our analysis is accurate. You just jump right into ‘show me the science.’ It’s your loss, my friend. I hope you are not Ian’s gatekeeper. You can stay in the comfort of the known. I’m interested in pushing the martial boundaries. Anyone who knows me in the States finds that I am more than open to personally share what I am talking about with direct experience. I was hoping you folks would have a more genuine curiosity. I can see I was wrong. Your tact with me is the wrong approach. Don’t bother head banging further. You can read my book—or not, and draw whatever conclusions you may.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

I'm certainly not "Iain's gatekeeper," for whatever that is worth--he doesn't need me to do that for him--but I do take karate seriously. You can take issue with my approach all you like, but I feel I have been fairly polite, and the fact remains that you came into a forum about practical karate to make a rather extraordinary claim about something that has thus far been repeatedly disproven, and now you seem to be upset that I'm not accepting those claims without any sort of proof. I do try to be open-minded, but there is a saying about that: "don't be so open-minded that your brain falls out." As I said, skepticism is an important part of learning, and one should always question not only the status quo, but also new information that contradicts the status quo.

I am open to the possibility that what you claim is true, but I am not going to just accept it without proof, and I don't think anyone should. I would also expect that you are very likely to find that people in forums like this one will generally be of a similar mindset. You should not expect people to simply accept your claims at face value.