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JonMcLean
JonMcLean's picture
The Anti-Iain

Hi everyone!

It's a fairly long-standing trope that for some heroes/main characters, there's an "evil twin", it's been joked that said evil twin has a villainous looking goatee as far as I know, this originated with Garthe Knight in the Knight Rider series ( https://images.app.goo.gl/RhpcbgquMdd2vhbEA )

Anyeay, I've been relistening to some of Iain's back-catalogue while in isolation, and it comes up in the episode "A Plethora of Martial Musings" that if the so called 3K karate world had logical and reasonable arguments to put forward that they would be really interesting to hear. Coming from a 3K background initially and being a relatively recent convert to the "light side" (or maybe dark side based on some of the gnarly techniques demonstrated) I have only experienced the "because that's how we've always done it" explanation.

So I'm interested to know if anyone has encountered anyone who's so prolific as Iain, ideally someone with a dodgy goatee for the reasons explained at the top of the post, whose whole thing is "here's a logical, reasonable and evidence-backed series of arguments in favour of 3K being correct and Bunkai-based being wrong". It would be interesting to read ones that can really hold water, and maybe equally interesting to read ones who can't.

Looking forward to hearing any thoughts :D

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Indeed that would be iteresting, I don't know anyone who could took the challenge

Kind regards

Les 

PASmith
PASmith's picture

There was a Wado guy on the forums a few years back who insisted that bunkai wasn't part of wado (and didn't need to be) as the kata (even though they predate wado as a style) teach you "correct movement" for combat in and of themselves as part of the style. Or something to that effect...could never really work out what he was getting at really.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Jon,

JonMcLean wrote:
So I'm interested to know if anyone has encountered anyone who's so prolific as Iain, ideally someone with a dodgy goatee for the reasons explained at the top of the post, whose whole thing is "here's a logical, reasonable and evidence-backed series of arguments in favour of 3K being correct and Bunkai-based being wrong".

We have the whole of the 3K community and there are a significant number of vocal people within it. The problem though is that we more pragmatic types have heard those arguments many times; and we’ve addressed them many times. That’s generally not the case the other way around.

Those from a 3K background, that are open to new ideas, tend to be convinced by the strength of positions put forth, and hence move away from 3K thinking. Those who dogmatically cling to it are unable to do so practically, historically or logically. They therefore either ignore what we’ve put forth and carry on as before, or they resort to logical fallacies. That’s the main reason I made this video so I could simply link to the required bit if I conversation reached that point (as it often does).  

 

It’s always good to listen to opposing views and question the status quo. Steadfast adherence to dogma is not healthy.  However, when you ask for “logical, reasonable and evidence-backed series of arguments in favour of 3K” your not going to find them because on many issues the 3K position is illogical, unreasonable and has little evidence to support the claims made. They have been examined by us, and many of us have written at length about the holes in the positions taken i.e. x-step sparring being combatively useful, hikite being for power, kata being an imaginary “fight” against eight fellow karateka, etc. We don’t get the same critical analysis back from the other side (just lots of restated dogma and logical facility), so we tend to question each other on more nuanced points.

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

PASmith wrote:
There was a Wado guy on the forums a few years back who insisted that bunkai wasn't part of wado (and didn't need to be) as the kata (even though they predate wado as a style) teach you "correct movement" for combat in and of themselves as part of the style. Or something to that effect...could never really work out what he was getting at really.

It's not an argument I buy either, but to his credit he did engage with us here eight years or so ago. He was happy to be challenged and did engage in good natured debate:

https://iainabernethy.co.uk/comment/4134#comment-4134

People can read through the thread and assess the strength of the relative arguments for themselves.

This article compares various approaches to kata from a purely logical perspective; and the position expressed by the aforementioned gentleman is one of the three approaches covered:

https://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/occams-hurdled-katana-logic-kata-application

All the best,

Iain

Chris R
Chris R's picture

I think the amount of evidence, both historical and practical, makes it very difficult to disagree with the practical karate crowd. I did 3K, and in my experience there is a strong culture of accepting ideas simply because they come from an authority figure. Questioning those ideas, or seeking evidence, is not a part of the learning process. With those points in mind, I highly doubt that an "anti-iain" exists.

deltabluesman
deltabluesman's picture

It's worth mentioning that there's a major asymmetry in the practical aspects of this debate.  Let's assume that a person does come forward with a logical, reasonable, and evidence-based series of arguments in favor of the 3K interpretation of karate.  Even if that happens (and I highly doubt it will), that person is still offering the same old 3K that's been on tap for decades.  And I can tell you that very few people outside of the 3K community take it seriously as a self-protection system, and for good reason.  (Sure, there are karate-MMA hybrids that have enjoyed some success and popularity, but I'm talking about traditional 3K.)  It simply is not a complete fighting system and, if used for self-protection or for most forms of fighting, is obsolete.  I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm just speaking what I believe is the honest truth.  People are welcome to disagree with me, and that's fine.

Bunkai-based karate, on the other hand, has the potential to take its place as a serious, highly effective system for self-protection.  It covers so many topics:  preemptive striking, defense against clothing grabs, limb clearing and datum setting, practical trapping, practical impact training, takedown defense, "dirty fighting" (i.e., throat grabs, groin strikes, etc.), etc.  A bunkai-based karateka can develop a skill set that is transferable (to some degree) to sporting contexts like boxing and kickboxing, which is a good way to broaden our training and learn from more people.  A bunkai-based karateka will be able to train in a way that avoids bad habits we sometimes see when other martial arts are used for self-protection, such as an overreliance on high kicks, chambering an empty hand at the hip (3K karate), overemphasis on ground fighting (BJJ), overemphasis on gi-based throws (Judo), overemphasis on compliant techniques (some forms of aikido), etc.  Most importantly bunkai-based karate can evolve.  It is not set in stone.  It is not bound by tradition (or at least, it doesn't have to be).  It is a living martial art.

So even if we assume the best case scenario for 3K, it still ends up being the same old 3K.  On the other hand, bunkai-based karate offers us the potential to develop into complete martial artists, while still preserving many of the historical and artist aspects of karate that we all enjoy (the kata, the history, etc.).  

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Great post. I think that the current moment of Karate is a great one to be in, precisely because we are seeing people break with tradition while being fully informed with the best parts of Karate tradition, and rediscovering just what that tradition taught prior to the modern replacement with what we call "3k".

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi All,

deltabluesman wrote:
It's worth mentioning that there's a major asymmetry in the practical aspects of this debate …

Brilliant post!

Zach Zinn wrote:
I think that the current moment of Karate is a great one to be in, precisely because we are seeing people break with tradition while being fully informed with the best parts of Karate tradition, and rediscovering just what that tradition taught prior to the modern replacement with what we call "3k".

100%. The true tradition has always been one of constant innovation, improvement and refinement. The irony is that we are part of that tradition because we draw on our strong roots to allow new branches to grow (as was always the case), meanwhile “3K” labels itself “traditional” when it is no such thing in practise or approach. A friend of mine uses the term “pseudo-traditional” which I quite like and find useful.

All the best,

Iain