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Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture
Kicks in self defense

Thought i'd rekindle this debate, as the only other thread I could find did not go far.

What are your thoughts on the usefulness of kicks in self defense?

I've done some adrenalized training with armor here and there over the years, I consider it the closest thing to real violence I've done in my training, and a lot of my conclusions about what "works" for me personally come from those, and the actual violent encounters I've had in my life. Some half -ass muggings and beatdowns, not like I'm some operator, I'm a round 43 year old. I've been on the receiving end of violence though and feel like if nothing else I have practical but somewhat conservative viewpoint about "works" when the rubber hits the road - gross motor stuff you can do with extreme violence, and very little complexity.  Everything else is training and "fighting" of one sort or another, lots of cool stuff to do in training of course but the "meat" is pretty minimal...a small collection of basic skills in practice. Of course as we all know the physical part of self defense is not the major skillset needed anway.

I had to use my de-escalation and fence type the other day for the first time in many years, and it reminded me of how greatful I am that my martial arts teachers included this sort of thing in their teaching. People are really on edge right now.

Anyway, onto the subject: I am dubious about the usefulness of kicks generally. I feel like situationally you can use something akin to a fast rising front kick to the groin ( I have successfully defended myself 20 years ago or so with a hard groin kick+ eye punch combo, not like it was planned, and I was a lot younger - maybe an unfair bias), and you can kick or stomp legs and joints at close range. Everything else seems so situational you might as well throw it out. Roundhouse kicks for instance (even to the leg) seem to be 85% a "fighting" thing to me as they happen at a distance that just doesn't happen for very long in chaotic situations. If there's anything that defines the violence i've personally experienced, it'd be chaos.

What do you think?

Chris R
Chris R's picture

I agree with your comments about distancing and the chaos of fighting. I think certain kicks have uses but they are situation dependant.

I think the kata map out a couple of good options, the focus being on short range, gross motor skill kicks aimed low. Kata show hand techniques before/with kicks, which I believe indicates you are kicking with some form of grip established. Or when your hands are engaged, but the intention is that hand techniques are the first priority, and they are your initial response. Kicks are an addition that further help you survive and escape by being disruptive and damaging. I believe this to be a practical way to approach kicking for self protection.

The roundhouse is a common part of this debate too. An inside leg roundhouse, aimed towards the lower leg, is an option I've seen taught by a couple of people. It works within arms reach and seems quite effective, although I have only ever used it in training, not in an actual fight.

Tau
Tau's picture

I do like a fumakomi geri for pragmatic use.

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Yes, this one kick that seems hugely useful at close range, knees, ankles, etc. I suspect sharp, short "front kicks" to the inner shins might have some utility too, especially with shod feet. Maybe that's putting too much reliance on pain though.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi All,

Zach Zinn wrote:
What are your thoughts on the usefulness of kicks in self defense?

They are not a primary methods, but I think they can be useful. I’ve personally used them to good effect. Of course, they need to be used in a tactically sound way. The close range, chaotic nature of self-protection means that the space needed is not readily available. Additionally, stability and mobility are vital, and both are greatly reduced when you take your foot off the floor. However, used at the right time they can be effective.

Some examples: I have used kicks when coming to the aid of others. I have used low kicks to the legs to maintain and increase space after creating it in other ways (kicks to legs being a great way to limit the enemy’s ability to give chase as you disengage). I’ve kicked from the floor in order to regain my feet. I’ve also used them to prevent other from regaining an upright position. Kicks therefore have a role to play in self-protection, but it’s a far less prominent role than they have in consensual combat.

Zach Zinn wrote:
I am dubious about the usefulness of kicks generally.

I guess it depends were where are measuring from. They are certainly not a primary method. They are a lot less useful than hand strikes, close-range strikes, limb-control, and gripping skills. However, I don’t think they are useless. I’d have them in the same category as joint-locks, chokes, strangles, etc. They have a role, but for the objective of self-protection it’s not a primary role.  

Zach Zinn wrote:
Roundhouse kicks for instance (even to the leg) seem to be 85% a "fighting" thing to me as they happen at a distance that just doesn't happen for very long in chaotic situations.

As regards the space, I totally agree on the “way in” but we can have that space on the “way out”.

Most real situations start close; typically conversation range. It’s therefore normally too close to use kicks when a situation turns physical. You then have the pressing need for both mobility and stability (depending on what is happening in the specific instant) so it’s generally inappropriate to take one foot off the floor. However, kicks can be still be applied in fight at appropriate times i.e. short kicks to shins, stamps to feet etc. For self-protection, our goal is to avoid harm so we will be seeking to create the space needed to escape. The enemy will invariably be hurt when they space is created, and to ensure they don’t simply re-orientate and give chase, we can use the space we have created to kick (if appropriate) in order to injure the legs and hence reduce their ability to give effective chase.

In summary, I’d say kicks are useful but definitely not a primary method.

All the best,

Iain

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Thanks Iain, that sums up my general feeling on it, while adding some details I'd not considered. I think I'm in full agreement that self defense wise kicks are in the same category as joint locks chokes etc., they might  contextually approriate, but not primary. Once we get back to training with partners one thing I want to do is work on some targetted sparring drills stuff to become familiar this sort of skill..."kicking on the way out" self defense wise.

Heath White
Heath White's picture

I once counted, and in the forms I am famililar with, kicks make up 10-15% of the techniques, depending on how you count.  

In the original versions of the forms I am familiar with, there are (1) snap front kicks, (2) crescent kicks with the rear leg from a horse stance, and (3) returning-wave Naihanchi kicks.  You also might add (4) the Shotokan stomp; my suspicion is that this was practiced by Azato and Funakoshi picked it up from him; and (5) the jump front kick.

I agree with an earlier commentator that these are almost always thrown while gripping the enemy, and with the possible exception of the crescent kick and jump front kick, always thrown low.

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Heath White wrote:

I agree with an earlier commentator that these are almost always thrown while gripping the enemy, and with the possible exception of the crescent kick and jump front kick, always thrown low.

This is part of the reason I'm somewhat skeptical of them in self defense. Raising one leg to kick while gripped carries some serious risks in my experience, kicking at "realistic" range ironically can be quite dangerous to the kicker, in my pressure testing experience at least.  Once things reach clinching/gripping range the time where one can safely kick ends very quickly. Not to say it's not there,  I resonate with the idea that stomps and downward rakes seem to be quite effective and less dangerous because they disturb one's footing less, especially when following low line krees, sharp kicks to the shins etc. I will say that I have used a "gripped" front kick in self defense, it definitely "worked" but recalling the situation as best I can, it was probably a risky tactic that happened to work out. This was a long time ago in my sport Karate days, before I even had a notion of doing such a thing, it just happened, which maybe does speak to it's utility.

Chris R
Chris R's picture

Zach Zinn wrote:
Raising one leg to kick while gripped carries some serious risks in my experience, kicking at "realistic" range ironically can be quite dangerous to the kicker, in my pressure testing experience at least.  Once things reach clinching/gripping range the time where one can safely kick ends very quickly.

I want to clarify what I meant by "gripped" in my original reply, as I understand some people use that term to refer to clinch positions like a collar tie. By gripped I mean that your hands are in contact with the other person, implying you have just taken an action involving your hands. I wasn't meaning that one should get into a mutually dominant clinch position, and then start kicking. Some people advocate that with shin kicks and such, but I'm not really a fan of that.

My idea of gripped kicking is that your hands are on the enemy because you have used them for your primary response. Hand techniques can lead to positions where kicks can be relatively useful. I don't mean that you should try to set up low line kicks with hand techniques, but rather that if your hand techniques cause the enemy to be in a position where a kick is useful, then kicking becomes viable. I believe this is why the kata show kicking techniques after hand techniques. Gripped kicking isn't the only option though, there are a bunch of other scenarios like kicking from the ground, kicking to create space, or kicking from a longer range. But for close range, standing, where hand techniques are involved, I think gripped kicking is the most viable option. It is also what seems to appear most frequently in the kata, which I think makes sense as kata are full of close range, standing hand techniques. It's more dangerous to kick without the hand/grip aspect as you're putting youself in a vulnerable, off-balanced position by kicking. The grip portion is where any possible "safety" comes from. But these scenarios are not very common, which is why kicking is only a relatively small part of the art.

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

I get what you are saying now, and I'm in agreement, thanks for clarifying. Well-explained and informative post.