Abuse in the Dojo

A few months ago I stuck my head in a very popular, large, well known and I guess respected group (ie within the community and schools etc etc) who teach 'karate', mostly to children, and I mean hundreds of them.

The large male instructor was bellowing at the top of his voice about 6 inches away from a little girls ear, she must have been 6/7 years old and was visably upset - something about respecting the Sensei and tying her belt right..............

I was very close to introducing myself rather loudly myself, what was amazing was everyone else was training like this was normal - you could hear him even above the rock music!

I call that abuse, and I think it's the tip of the iceburg nationwide.

I've seen quite a bit, both in Europe and Japan.

Why do people do it?  Because they can.  As Iain said, martial arts help some people to control their base nature, for others, to indulge it.

Having been knocked around a bit as a child and caned at school one particular loathing of mine is the shinai.  This was quite popular in Kyokushin for a while.  You'd be whacked with one if you weren't showing 'spirit'.  Nobody did that to me but it still brought back unpleasant memories.

I also hated the stupid forfeits on Summer Camps for minute lapses.  One young (very young) girl was made to strip down to her underwear and run around the training area.  The instructors stood there embarrassed, and to my shame the rest of us looked away.  I'd like to think I'd never watch that kind of crap again without stepping up and telling them it was bullying and sexual abuse, plain and simple.

Gary

yes I remember on a winter camp 2 of the students didn't pass their brown belt, they were 15'ish.

The instructors made them strip to their underwear and jump in the freezing pool! I was only 17 myself and at that point new I would be leaving the association.

crazy world martial arts!

I think that the so called "instructors" that inflict this sort of punishment on people were poor examples of human beings long before they got involved in martial arts. I think this is exacerbated by a culture of not questioning Sensei's methods in some organisations. Society as a whole does not accept that sort of behaviour, so it is disturbing that it was/is allowed to occur in martial arts.

I know I'm on thin ice here, but I'm not entirely sure I agree with everybody on this one.

Granted, some extreme examples have been given which no one in their right mind would condone but (a lot of) karate is underpinned by a quasi-military approach which can work well on a number of levels.

The approach of punishment for misdemeanours and even a certain degree of humiliation, (fewer people seem to forget their belts since I introduced the Pink Belt of Shame), can help instil discipline in people which, in mirror of the belt system, starts with being disciplined externally with the end goal of course being one of self-discipline.

While I don't of course agree with bullying, I do think that some people mistakenly view things as bullying that simply are not.  Some drill sergeants are bully's, others are not, but from an outsider's perspective, it can be hard to tell the difference. Sometimes when getting one of the guys ready for a (cage) fight I need to take them out of the dojo down to the gym which is a public space.  Obviously, they are being pushed hard but it can look bad to an outsider and people have said things to me about it. As I say, from an outsider's perspective, it can be hard to tell the difference.

Perhaps the difference is internal motivation?

Hi Gavin Sensei,

Obviously I don't know detail, but Roger Sensei has mentioned how hard you and your guys work and some of the tests they go through, you make a valid point.

I think first thing is when dealing with adults, things can become different. When dealing with people looking to compete in the cage, things can become very different.

I saw some of your dojo sparring on youtube, and it was heavy, testing and great IMO - im guessing people choose to do it? They may of course be activly encouraged, or it may be a requirement to grade up but ultimatly thery are not forced?

I think that is a good point and may answer the original 'what should be done about it' question. Perhaps if people don't like a dojo or an instructor, they shouldn't train there.

My (current) perspective may well be influenced by the fact that I don't teach children and  I'm sure there are many people better qualified than I on here to talk about that perspective.

No one is forced to do anything in the dojo that they don't want to do.  But in my opinion, the purpose of much of what we do as Sensei is to get people to face their fears.  For some this will be sparring; for others it may be having to perform a kata in front of everyone; for others still it might be having to wear a pink belt in class! This may be done quickly (like the psychological technique of flooding) or over a long period of time (like psychotherapy).  The mark of a good Sensei (again IMO) is how well they can manage to match the strategies to the student.

So no one is forced, but it is my goal to push people through certain physical and mental barriers with combat as the vehicle to achieve those (higher?) goals.

No sadism in there Gavin, just challenging people and I'm sure we all do the same in our own way.

One of my old schoolteachers was required to resign after it became apparent that caning people was - ahem - stimulating for him.  I've seen the same look in people eyes when they've been swinging a shinai about.  That sort of thing is about 200 yards PAST my line in the sand.

Gary

Thanks for all the replies.

I've always found the abuse thing interesting in the fact that what some people consider abuse, others consider traditional martial arts. For instance I've had people acuse me of being abusive simply because during classes I've led people have thrown-up from all the physical training. I never for once have considered doing push-ups or set-ups, burpees, curls until you reach muscle exhaustion physical abuse. I mean after all, I'm right there beside the person doing the exercises too. On the other hand however some of these same people have told me that cutting a watermelon of a childs stomach (10 years old) with a samurai sword is perfectly okay. Never mind the kid will have nightmares for the rest of their life.

It seems to me people often confuse pushing towards the next level of physical fitness abuse while other behaviors, such as Gary mentioned, are viewed as acceptable,evem traditional.

Odd...very odd to say the least.

Mike 

Oooohhh It's the watermelon that's supposed to be on top! My watermelon was totally unscathed but no wonder I never got invited back to the Church fete...

Personally, I find what some systems are passing off as karate in recent times, a form of abuse in the dojo, no?

Gavin Mulholland wrote:

Oooohhh It's the watermelon that's supposed to be on top! My watermelon was totally unscathed but no wonder I never got invited back to the Church fete...

Personally, I find what some systems are passing off as karate in recent times, a form of abuse in the dojo, no?

Kid friendly are you Gavin?

On the second point yes, I agree. I often wonder though if its a missperception about traditional karate. There are militaristic undertones to karate, as you pointed out, but far to often those undertones (IMO) are taken to heart as a legal means for physical abuse. I especially cringe when I see young guys around the 19 to 25 year age brackett teaching. But then again I also know some guys who have been abusive in their teachings for 30 years or more.

Mike

I can't understand how this Abuse comes into place, in my dojo I am so relaxed, the Kids and the Adults always enjoy their lessons.

I tell jokes and Give it the "When I was you age........" to which I get "Oooooooohhhh Sensei" in unison from the kids. this is not to say discipline is not there just that I'm not Japanese so I don't need to sit it Motsu or seiza etc for 10 minutes etc before we do anything.

There are many cases of all types of abuse happening, but them i suppose we thank god for CRB checks and whistle blowing etc.

You raise some good points Gavin.

Gavin Mulholland wrote:

The approach of punishment for misdemeanours and even a certain degree of humiliation, (fewer people seem to forget their belts since I introduced the Pink Belt of Shame), can help instil discipline in people which, in mirror of the belt system, starts with being disciplined externally with the end goal of course being one of self-discipline.

Good point. I think that you are right for the most part, but as with most things, I think that moderation is the key here. Things like your Pink Belt of Shame tend to be a bit of fun for the whole class because everyone has a bit of a laugh, learns the lesson, moves on, and the "humiliation" tends to be short lived with no lasting trauma.

Gavin Mulholland wrote:

I do think that some people mistakenly view things as bullying that simply are not.  Some drill sergeants are bully's, others are not, but from an outsider's perspective, it can be hard to tell the difference. Sometimes when getting one of the guys ready for a (cage) fight I need to take them out of the dojo down to the gym which is a public space.  Obviously, they are being pushed hard but it can look bad to an outsider and people have said things to me about it. As I say, from an outsider's perspective, it can be hard to tell the difference.

I agree with you. I think that there is a fine line between this sort of training which is for the student's benefit and training that is for the instructors gratification. In your example the supposed "abuse" can be relatively easily explained, especially when the person being "abused" has voluntarily given the instructor permission to do so. Going back to the video in the other thread, I still haven't figured out how the instructor kicking the student in the nuts is in any way good for the student - regardless of whether the student gave the instructor permission to do it. I'm sure that most guys already know how painful that is, so a reminder doesn't really serve any purpose.

This thread has been quite enlightening and there is plenty of food for thought.

The bio of that instructor talks of him living alone in the mountains for a year (very Oyama like) to find the 'true' way.

If that's the case I'd suggest it was time wasted.  Training with other people might have improved his control and social skills.  I find as I get older I just get really narked at those samurai wannabees.  That time has gone.  Move on.

Gary

Just so there is no misunderstanding; I in no way approve of what that guy apppeared to be doing on the clip.

Gavin Mulholland wrote:

Just so there is no misunderstanding; I in no way approve of what that guy apppeared to be doing on the clip.

I didn't get the impression you approved.  Any sane minded person watching an extremely skilful person kicking a beginner in the nuts or dropping people onto their necks has got to think WTF?

I'm not the most gentle instructor in the world and I think pushing people hard is what they pay me for.  But respect and a good reputation come from treating people fairly, not like pieces of meat. 

Gary

I was away from the computer all day yesterday so I’m coming to this one a little late. Some of my thoughts around this issue:

Gavin’s point about the instructor’s “internal motivation” is key I feel. I have no problem with being pushed and bellowed at when the motivation from the person doing the bellowing is to help me find my real limit as opposed to my perceived limit. It’s all for my benefit: I know that and they know that.

However, if an instructor is bellowing at someone to belittle, humiliate, indulge their ego, etc that I feel that is completely out of order. Basically you have to ask who the screaming and shouting is being done to benefit? The student or the instructor?

While “aggressively motivating” someone can be a legitimate coaching method; it is not the only one, is it not always appropriate, and there are better methods. Regardless of the motivation of the instructor, if the recipient does not respond well to it then it is ineffective (doubly so if they find it emotionally very upsetting).

A good instructor will not be a “one trick pony” and will be able to match their teaching style to the student in order to get the most out of them. If screaming and shouting is all an instructors has, I would say they don’t have the skills to be an instructor.

In all my years of training I can recall only one instance of what I would call “abuse”: which was when I was around 15 years old and I was having a really good day in sparring against one of the instructors. He lost his temper, kicked me hard in the groin, and then walked away to spar with someone else. It hurt physically (obviously!) but, being the kind of teenager I was, I knew I’d got to him so classed it as a good result!

Aside from the above, I can recall no instance of “abuse”. I’ve certainly been pushed very hard, but I never doubted that that pushing was for anything other than my own benefit.

I’d like to think I’ve learnt a trick or two in my 24 years of teaching martial arts and hence I have a variety of motivational methods. My students work very hard, but we have fun too. I like to use my voice to push the group, but I want to instil “self-discipline” where they are the ones pushing themselves with me motivating them to do so and giving them a direct push if needed.

I don’t very want that forced “bowing and scraping subservience” that passes for “discipline”. I also want my students to be scared of the challenge, but never scared of me.

A big part of self-protection is ensuring the student will stand up for themselves. A dojo environment where people mindlessly obey the (perhaps inappropriate) commands of the big scary guy at the front is conditioning them to comply as opposed to fight back. I think many people sometimes lose sight of that and hence their teaching style achieves the exact opposite of their goal.

In the clip that launched this thread, you have to ask what has been done to the students sense of “self” that they will stand there and allow someone to film them being kicked in the groin and punched in the face? For self-protection to work, people need to know that their “self” is worth protecting.

If anyone ever feels that the classes they are attending are all about their instructor’s personality disorders, they should leave and go learn from someone else. If what they are doing borders on emotional or physical abuse, then I’d suggest reporting them to the association to which they belong and in some situations (i.e. any involving inappropriate treatment of children) then they should be reported to the police.

I hate it when I read newspaper reports of people using karate as a medium to physically, emotionally and sexually abuse vulnerable people who came to them for help avoiding such things. The vast majority of instructors are well meaning good people and we should not let a very small minority tarnish the art.

All the best,

Iain

When viewing abuse of any kind- It is your duty to speak out, and speak up.  If you think it is questionable, you should still say something. The degree of your comment or conversation will reflect the degree of what you saw. 

If it is a case of aggressive motivating- then a quiet conversation with the instructor to find out his reasons, and if this is the kind of environment he runs, will be enough information for you to consider if you want to train there. It will also give you the context of why he was doing it in the first place. HE could very well explain that you are watching the elite competition squad training, and heavy motivation is the norm here, but in the regular classes you won't be subject to this. 

At the other end of the scale when I see instructors yelling at kids, or anything similar- A shout from the sidelines loudly in the middle of class directly to the instructor "Hey! Why don't you talk nice to your kids?" does it too. It also opens up everyone else to the fact that this is wrong. Kids and other adults.  It also can lead to a conversation about proper positive motivation techniques. 

Now with some of the non-sense stuff, like the more military drilling yelling (where it is not appropriate, but not abusive) and borderline stuff- it might not be the instructors fault. He could be teaching as he was taught, without stopping to question the format himself. We see this all the time with non-functional techniques passed along generation to generation until someone actually tries to use it, and it fails. The same happens with non-functional instruction methods. The difference is coaching- people should be led and motivated along the way, the role of a coach more than a know-it-all infallible instructor. 

Fortunately every club, dojo, gym, school, whatever you want to call it, where there was functional technique and coaching / instruction, there was also a welcoming and agreeable 'vibe' to the place. I've never felt discordance in those environments, even before seeing the class- the attitude of the fellow students and parents in the lounge or hallways. It has some warmth to it. 

Those other places...well, I can't put my finger on it, but I just don't feel comfortable here- is a common feeling as soon as you walk through the door. And most times- it has been founded with something weird going on in the place. Lots of Ego building, or quasi-cult mindset teaching. It feels wrong because it is wrong. It's the same as finding the fear based advertising on TV. Every commercial- look at it with the through, where is the fear is the sales gimmick? Once you look for it, you can find it. 

Healthy, well developed, individuals won't put up with this crap, nor will they dish it out. And after all, isn't this what martial arts training is supposed to develop? Healthy, well balanced, fear free, morally correct individuals? Through the process of pushing your body athletically, more so when we work in an environment that forces us to deal with deep emotions and base instincts, these attributes are the natural result of good training. So if you're in a place where abuse is happening, what kind of training are you really getting anyways?