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WadoBen
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Application of Bo kata principles

Does anyone have any thoughts on the application of kobudo weapons kata, bo kata in particular.

I'm mainly curious about the changes of direction, as there are the usual 180 degree turns and blocks with the bo same as karate kata "turn and block" if we consider that the turn and block in a karate kata is unrealistic then how can it be applied to a bo kata?

i don't have any particular bo kata in mind I'm just looking for principles to apply all kata. 

shoshinkanuk
shoshinkanuk's picture

One major use of the turns in karate, and indeed kobudo kata is takedowns, often with the opponent locked up so they fall badly or have their weapon removed from their grip.

Tau
Tau's picture

shoshinkanuk wrote:
One major use of the turns in karate, and indeed kobudo kata is takedowns, often with the opponent locked up so they fall badly or have their weapon removed from their grip.

Like this. Sorry about the format, by the way. We've come a long way since we filmed this.

Th0mas
Th0mas's picture

Thanks for sharing that Peter.

Although I recognise this is a demonstration, I just thought I would make a brief comment on the technique. 

I would suggest that rather than grabing your opponents chin which (depending on the circumstances) is likely to be quite fiddly, although doable.. use your whole arm to illicite the neck crank. Also I try and shift to my opponents offside, to enable me to step in front of (or close to) my opponents front foot betfore turning and unbalance him with my weight.

Essentially your opponents chin will nestle nicely in the crook of your elbow and as you straighten the arm whilst you turn, with your other arm pulling your opponent down. This is a more of a  macro-movement than the chin grab, and not surprisingly follows the gedanbarai motion quite nicely.

Cheers

Tom

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

WadoBen wrote:

Does anyone have any thoughts on the application of kobudo weapons kata, bo kata in particular.

I'm mainly curious about the changes of direction, as there are the usual 180 degree turns and blocks with the bo same as karate kata "turn and block" if we consider that the turn and block in a karate kata is unrealistic then how can it be applied to a bo kata?

i don't have any particular bo kata in mind I'm just looking for principles to apply all kata. 

I have lots of thoughts on this, epecially since I teach Kobudo and Iaido in addition to Karate.

It's too bad the Karate Underground forum is gone, this very subject, especially regarding Bo, was discussed over and over on that forum.

It really depends on the style of Kobudo, and the Kata. 

In the Kobudo I teach/practice, from Hayashi's Kenshin Ryu and Taira lineage, turns with the bo typically represent a new waza, or mini kata within the kata, these mini kata are referred to as Riai, and usually have a lesson entirely different from the previous Riai, so demonstrating them with bunkai in sequence often doesn't make sense or flow to the untrained eye.

Tau
Tau's picture

Th0mas wrote:
I would suggest that rather than grabing your opponents chin which (depending on the circumstances) is likely to be quite fiddly, although doable.. use your whole arm to illicite the neck crank. Also I try and shift to my opponents offside, to enable me to step in front of (or close to) my opponents front foot betfore turning and unbalance him with my weight.

Essentially your opponents chin will nestle nicely in the crook of your elbow and as you straighten the arm whilst you turn, with your other arm pulling your opponent down. This is a more of a  macro-movement than the chin grab, and not surprisingly follows the gedanbarai motion quite nicely.

 

I see what you're describing there and completely agree. I see it as a different technique to the one I've demonstrated. What I would ask is that you put yours up and then other users can see both.

Th0mas
Th0mas's picture

...Good Point Peter

As per my camera thread, that's something I am keen to do... I now have the equipment, the tools, potential venue... just a case of getting it done :-)

Jr cook
Jr cook's picture

Ben, I'm still working out the practical applications for my kobudo kata as well. I can tell you that some of the turns in Bo katas are just turns. I don't see (At this point in time) anything deeper than going another direction. As Shoshin mentioned above there are a number of possible takedowns and disarming techniques in the katas. some of these would not work without the turn or a good amount of body shifting.

There are not many examples of staff combat and I think it's all but a lost art these days. Here is one video to get you started. Note the times near the end when the defender moves off-line, especially when using the rear hand to intercept the opponent. These could easily be a 90 or 180 degree turn like we see in kobudo kata.

The other question I always want to have answered is who am I fighting? Or more specifically, what are they armed with? Your applications against another spear or staff will vary from those against an unarmed opponent. 

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

We actually dont have many disarms, at least not intentional ones with the bo.

Why would you, if I have any facility with the weapon and I strike you, you'll have a split skull or broken arm, so why bother disarming.

As to take downs, there are, but much is like the previous notion, I'm striking your legs, joints, if I have any facility with the weapon, you will be on the ground writhing in pain.

My major point here, is that as a default, bunkai is against other armed people.  

This has come up so many times in other forums, people, Kobudo is not a direct extension of Karate, its Kobudo.  Weapon on Weapon.  

Granted training in Kobudo can advance your Karate, and training in Karate can advance your Kobudo.

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

Please watch Oshiro Sensei:

My Yamane Ryu instructor is Rob Alvelais, Rob is a direct student of Oshiro.  

Watch his video, if you think, you can block any of his strikes without a weapon....  You are as cracked as your skull and limbs would be.

Granted I mostly do Ryu Kyu Kobudo under Hanshi Miki, but he's way more seclusive about video. 

harlan
harlan's picture

Visiting the West coast and training with Alvelais sensei is one of my bucket items. :) Not be a pain...but regarding the term 'disarm'. Not to get hung up on it, but isn't that one objective of a strike to the hand?

Dale Parker wrote:

Please watch Oshiro Sensei:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6RFiSxHrFo

My Yamane Ryu instructor is Rob Alvelais, Rob is a direct student of Oshiro.  

Watch his video, if you think, you can block any of his strikes without a weapon....  You are as cracked as your skull and limbs would be.

Granted I mostly do Ryu Kyu Kobudo under Hanshi Miki, but he's way more seclusive about video. 

shoshinkanuk
shoshinkanuk's picture

some good points being raised, many of our takedowns are indeed strikes that then turn into takedowns, or aggrsive disarms etc. We do not really seperate the 2 things so much, like in our karate Kyusho-tuite pretty much the same stuff just different context and emphasis.

Grante dour Kobudo is not as deep as our karate, and indeed the Ryu I belong to only had so much kobudo stuff going on, from Hohan Soken before the public system was expanded.

We only have 1 each of Bo, Sai, Tonfa, Kama Kata and some Kusari and Nunchaku excercises etc.

I must say I do love kobudo and am resisting moving on from the Bo a d Sai work we do.

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

harlan wrote:

Visiting the West coast and training with Alvelais sensei is one of my bucket items. :) Not be a pain...but regarding the term 'disarm'. Not to get hung up on it, but isn't that one objective of a strike to the hand?

Alvelais Shihan is on your bucket items?  Is that like a bucket list?  

I see him fairly regularly, and can't imagine why you'd want to visit him.

Being one of his friends, I keep a dossier of dirt on him.  Select videos and photographs.  I may have to share those now.

Jr cook
Jr cook's picture

Dale Parker wrote:

We actually dont have many disarms, at least not intentional ones with the bo.

Why would you, if I have any facility with the weapon and I strike you, you'll have a split skull or broken arm, so why bother disarming.

Why disarm an armed opponent? I assumed it was obvious. 

Quote:
My major point here, is that as a default, bunkai is against other armed people.  

This has come up so many times in other forums, people, Kobudo is not a direct extension of Karate, its Kobudo.  Weapon on Weapon.  

I tend to agree about the opponent being armed. This is how I usually practice. Mainly because an unarmed opponent is, in theory, at a great disadvantage. Still, it's worth some practice with unarmed opponents to learn how much of a disadvantage and how to maintain your advantage. (It can go so wrong, so quickly.)

I missed those previous discussions unfortunately. I don't see how we can know if it is an armed or unarmed opponent. For kata application it makes the world of difference. I still see potential for an unarmed opponent. Especially with the history of police weaponry in China and Okinawa that is included in our Kobudo. 

If they are armed, then I want to know what likely weapons I am training against. Again, a big difference. A staff disarm will not work against kama and it requires a completely different strategy of combat than say a spear. We train Bo vs. Bo a lot because it is fun and some of the techniques work well, just as they are in the katas. Bo vs. two short weapons or vs. a blade, that's a completely different fight.

Dale Parker
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I guess my play on dis arm was not obvious.  Hard to get sarcasm in text.

I have to disagree, a Bo is an excellent weapon to fight against a kama, so why wouldnt a strike that breaks an arm or wrist work against a Kama?  That is the unintentional disarm that happens when striking in limbs with a bo.

IMO the more complex the weapon, if the person is an expert, the more difficult it is to combat with a simple weapon; however, if the person is not an expert with the complex weapon, and the person with the simple weapon is an expert, the simple weapon can over come the more complex weapon.

harlan
harlan's picture

Depends on the range, doesn't it?

Dale Parker wrote:

I have to disagree, a Bo is an excellent weapon to fight against a kama, so why wouldnt a strike that breaks an arm or wrist work against a Kama?  That is the unintentional disarm that happens when striking in limbs with a bo.

What defines 'complex'? Which is more...in your opinion?

Dale Parker wrote:

IMO the more complex the weapon, if the person is an expert, the more difficult it is to combat with a simple weapon; however, if the person is not an expert with the complex weapon, and the person with the simple weapon is an expert, the simple weapon can over come the more complex weapon.

Jr cook
Jr cook's picture

It's true, smashing the limb holding the weapon is as effective as taking away the weapon. In that sense, it's a great disarm. 

Harlan, I would say range is everything in kobudo. Someone with a good understanding of range, a strong sense of aggression and a few basic skills can probably hold their own pretty well.

Dale Parker
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Double weapons, like sai, kama, tonfa, and smaller weapons are what I consider more complex.

Range is determined by weapon type and user.

This is were Karate training is advantages, as typically we've learned to close the distance gap and move in.  Facilitating strikes with smaller weapons.

harlan
harlan's picture

Based on the countless kama examples on youtube...I'm not certain that karate training is generally a plus. Not after the basics, anyway.

Dale Parker wrote:
This is were Karate training is advantages, as typically we've learned to close the distance gap and move in.  Facilitating strikes with smaller weapons.

Dale Parker
Dale Parker's picture

harlan wrote:

Based on the countless kama examples on youtube...I'm not certain that karate training is generally a plus. Not after the basics, anyway.

Dale Parker wrote:
This is were Karate training is advantages, as typically we've learned to close the distance gap and move in.  Facilitating strikes with smaller weapons.

I think it depends on which side of the Kama you are on.  I was referring to the person using the Kama, they know how to close the distance past the end of the bo/spear.