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Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture
Are Goju Ryu applications "lost"?

In another thread it was suggested that somehow the applications of Goju Ryu have been "lost to time", in particular grappling applications. While I would first of all dispute personally that any form of Karate is a primary grappling system, it has not been my experience at all that Goju Ryu fighting applications are lost, grappling or otherwise. In fact, if anything my training in Goju Ryu has involved a more significant amount of grappling than Shorin Ryu did. Both my Goju Ryu teachers have been competitive Judoka, and cross training has a bit of history in Goju Ryu.

That said, any Karateka that wants to understand grappling on it's own terms should probably learn to grapple, to some degree. Kata cannot teach principles of grappling by itself, and from my perspectie, if we want to understand grappling principles in Kata, likely we first need basic experiential knowledge of grappling.

Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to post a few videos of Taira Masaji, Morio Hiagonna, Kris Wilder, and Paul Enfield, and Iain  to compare, and to show that in fact, the applications of the Goju Ryu kata are not lost. This is the first time I have heard a statement like this, and found it a bit surprising. For sure, certain aspects of training are continually being lost and need to be refreshed and given new life by practitioners, with a critical and unflinching eye. However, I would make the case that Goju is a fairly uniform system as Karate styles go, and that there a few people out there teaching applications consistent with it's principles.

Further, I would also submit that understanding Goju Ryu application simply requires understanding principles of both Kata and the strategy of Karate in a larger sense, not neccessarily catalouging of specific techiques. I'm guessing this is why Iain can pick up a Goju Ryu kata, figure it out, and have a functional and effecive bunkai. There is no special filing of techniques needed, more an understanding of the langauge of Kata, and a solid understanding of combative principles.

Morio Hiagonna:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5VVDmLlWFY

Taira Masaji:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T346BXXO8H0

Kris Wilder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6oa6sDwjWg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2i0D027prk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6oa6sDwjWg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqOlz-8I6Is

Paul Enfield:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF1TI9YM_WM

Iain Abernethy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hZ4iOHPuGU

Further, I would argue that in these videos, there are different expressions of a fairly consisten set of principles. Not all of them will be to everyon'es liking of course, but I do see some common threads.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Zach,

Zach Zinn wrote:
In another thread it was suggested that somehow the applications of Goju Ryu have been "lost to time", in particular grappling applications.

I think it would be fair to say that for some groups, certain elements have been underemphasised due to pressures from other quarters i.e. karate as art, physical exercise or sport. However, on reflection, I would agree that “lost” maybe too strong a term for that (although I have used it myself that way). The word means: Unable to be found; That has been taken away or cannot be recovered; No longer possessed or retained; etc.

That fact that many groups do practise bunkai would mean that bunkai is not lost; if we run with a strict definition of “lost”. In some cases, a given application is well documented. In other cases, it has been “recovered” using the guidance we have from the past. In some other cases, the bunkai will have been “re-invented”, but the fact this is based on traditional kata and with historical guidance as to the nature of kata makes this more akin to archaeology (rediscovery and interpretation of the past) than true invention (creating something which has no past before that point).

I’m guilty of this though as I will often refer to “karate’s lost throws”, when what I really mean is “historical throes that are now underemphasised or absent from the practise of some modern karateka”. “Lost” is a little most succinct, but they obviously can’t truly be lost if they are documented and being practiced!

Zach Zinn wrote:
While I would first of all dispute personally that any form of Karate is a primary grappling system …

I would totally agree. Karate has a grappling component, but the striking is definitely given priority (as one would expect for a system based on the needs of civilians). Funakoshi sums this up quite nicely in Karate-Do Kyohan:

“In karate, hitting, thrusting, and kicking are not the only methods, throwing techniques and joint-locks are included … One must always keep in mind that since the essence of karate is found in seeking to end the situation with every punch or kick, and one should try never to be grasped by or grapple with an opponent, one must be careful not to be defeated through being overly concerned with throwing an opponent or applying a joint lock.”

So, grappling is in there, but as a back-up to striking which remains the favour method.

Zach Zinn wrote:
That said, any Karateka that wants to understand grappling on it's own terms should probably learn to grapple, to some degree. Kata cannot teach principles of grappling by itself, and from my perspective, if we want to understand grappling principles in Kata, likely we first need basic experiential knowledge of grappling.

I think Mabuni sums this one up nicely:

“kata must be practiced properly, with a good understanding of their bunkai meaning … To create two-person drills containing all of the techniques including each and every one of their variations is impossible. However, if one practices kata correctly, it will serve as a foundation for performing - when a crucial time comes - any of the infinite number of variations. However, even if you practice the karate kata as you should, if that is all that you do, if you do not train sufficiently in other areas, then you will not develop sufficient skills.” – Kenwa Mabuni

Kata is the map, but we need to take the map into the terrain (live practise) to learn how to truly navigate / fight. The map does not contain the wind, the rain, the mud, the heat, the cold, the dangerous animals, etc. We need a map to know how to best respond to those variables but owning the map alone does not give one the skills needed to safely navigate the landscape. Same with kata.

Zach Zinn wrote:
I'm guessing this is why Iain can pick up a Goju Ryu kata, figure it out, and have a functional and effective bunkai. There is no special filing of techniques needed, more an understanding of the language of Kata, and a solid understanding of combative principles.

That’s right. The nature of kata tends to be pretty uniformly expressed across all the styles / in the historical sourses. As Mabuni – a man very familiar with a wide range of kata of different linages – said, “There are no styles of karate, only variations of it’s principles.” Those principles are common, as is the nature of human violence. It’s therefore possible to look at a kata from outside one’s own lineage, through those lenses, and have a good idea as to what is happening.

All the best,

Iain

Frazatto
Frazatto's picture

As a Goju practitioner and former Shotokan, I must say the "limb control" component was pretty evident right form the start, it's not lost at all in my opinion.

Specially compared to the heavily JKA influenced shotokan I learned before, we would barely talk about "in fighting" and grappling was like forbidden black magic.

But now, when I showed to my instructor some of Iain's demonstrations, he just said "Cool, but not yet. Let the rest of the class get to a level we can have this conversation with them too."

I still can't see the throws in the kata though.

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Frazatto wrote:

As a Goju practitioner and former Shotokan, I must say the "limb control" component was pretty evident right form the start, it's not lost at all in my opinion.

Specially compared to the heavily JKA influenced shotokan I learned before, we would barely talk about "in fighting" and grappling was like forbidden black magic.

But now, when I showed to my instructor some of Iain's demonstrations, he just said "Cool, but not yet. Let the rest of the class get to a level we can have this conversation with them too."

I still can't see the throws in the kata though.

From my perspective, in Goju Ryu kata you can find osoto-gari all over the place (a lot of turns the in Sanchin stance are this throw or some variation where you kick out a knee, etc.), and then there is the throw that I think is called "valley drop" in Judo, however with the Judo version you go down with them, with the karate version you block them with your leg in Shiko and essentialy make them trip over it, couple with hitting, using an elbow to push or slam, etc.. There are a bunch of versions of it in the kata. For instance the thing that looks like an "augmented middle block" followed by a downblock motion in shiko moving forward is a use of this throwing technique, another variation is the obvious one in Seipai, where you drive in with an elbow and then dump them preceding the one-knuckle strike-looking things.

If you ever watch Jeff Chan's MMA shredded channel (man that dude is talented) he seems to use this throw frequently in his MMA sparring.

In Goju Ryu Kata terms, I would say look more for the -entry- to the throw than the execution, that's not to say the execution isn't there, but it's easy to go wrong thinking that it is supposed to look like a Judo throw, but judo throws mostly come from clothing grips (somewhat standardized ones at that), and do all kinds of things that are outside the wheelhouse of kata, not all throws in kata involve these kinds of grips, or the kind of entry a Judo throw would use neccessarily.

So, if you can see in a Kata how you would end up hip to hip with someone, or how you would break their posture a certain way, etc. then there is the place to look for throws.

There are also a few seoinage (Saifa, Kururunfa, Shisochin) and tai otoshi (Seipai) throws and even a very rough version of irimi-nage in there (last Saifa technique), but the way they look and are done is -way- different than Judo, etc. and would be considered quite sloppy by Judoka, some are almost trips as much as they are throws...which is ok in my book because I am not trying to be Judoka, just put someone on the ground.

For the valley drop throw, here is the Judo version:

 

Go to about 2:44 if you want a picture-perfect position to look at. Remember the hands can differ from this substantially, since we are not coming from grips all the time.

Like I said the execution is different, but if you look where his body and feet are as he enters, you can get a rough idea of how to apply this to some Goju Ryu movements in Shiko Dachi. Like any throw, you need a good uke at first to get the leverage of it, before thinking about anything dynamic or live.  In my experience many Karate people are terrible ukes to learn throws with unless they've cross trained or done a fair amount of ukemi, having a competent partner for the early stages of learning throws is a huge benefit.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Zach Zinn wrote:
From my perspective, in Goju Ryu kata you can find osoto-gari all over the place ... {Snip]

I can't speak to Goju-Ryu, specifically, as I am primarily a Shorin-Ryu practitioner, and have only ever learned 4 of the Goju-Ryu kata (all of which I have tweaked to better fit into my approach, since I'm not beholden to a Goju-Ryu lineage/organization). I will say, though, that in my experience, there is certainly still plenty of grappling to be found in Goju-Ryu, and probably more of it than you'll find at the average Shorin-Ryu dojo, just by virtue of the fact that most Goju-Ryu dojo still practice kakie/kakidi, while most Shorin-Ryu dojo have dropped it from their training, for some reason.

I can provide some commentary on this specific example that you gave as a throwing application, from a Shorin-Ryu perspective, for what that's worth. If I'm understanding you correctly, I believe a better Judo comparison for the throw you're referring to would be sukui-nage or obi-otoshi, but applied as wedges/scissors throws instead of grabbing/lifting throws. It's a standard application for the sinking gedan-barai in Tachimura no Naihanchi, and one which I apply to various gedan-barai in shiko-dachi found in other kata. I'm also quite fond of using the Judo versions as an application for the sequence at the beginning of Kusanku Dai where you drop into shiko-dachi while "collecting" with your hands, then pull to the "stacked hands" position as you stand up.

Sukui-Nage: https://judoinfo.com/sukui-nage/

Obi-Otoshi: https://judoinfo.com/obi-otoshi/

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Wastelander wrote:
I can't speak to Goju-Ryu, specifically, as I am primarily a Shorin-Ryu practitioner ... [snip]

Thanks Noah.  Yeah, those  throws are a bit closer than my example, in my experience the big thing is both breaking their balance backward, while moving "in" at the same time, almost like making a little ellipse so the "bump" kind of hits two directions of imbalance at once. I think you are describing the precise thing I am talking about.

Goju Ryu wise there are a bunch of specific variations of this in kata, just with different things going on with the hands.

Frazatto
Frazatto's picture

Could any of you two record an example of those in action???

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Frazatto wrote:

Could any of you two record an example of those in action???

Next time I have students over and think about it I can try to do an unlisted video and send it or something if you want, not sure I want to put out public application videos at the time.

Noah's examples are good though, the obi-otoshi is almost the exact technique often taught for this takedown in Seipai.

The way I was very first taught these is to have someone stand in a typical stance, hands up, then you pracitcing stepping behind their lead foot in Shiko, having as little space as possible, from there it is not that hard to figure a variety of things to do. Next step is to push the opponents arm towards their face as you enter, to get the kazushi. If you look at the entries for these throws, they are not that different other than the hands - so for isntance in Seipai you kind of go "under" the arm and drive in towards the face with your elbow, sometimes just the body marriage is enough and other times you do the full obi otoshi, or you can also grab the pants instead of the belt like the sukui nage.

 

Here's a video of a common self defense technique taught against a bear hug, I learned this in Jujutsu, it is the same throw. If the posture is different sometimes you don't need to grab anything at all, but can kind of stand and and "look at" the person (turning a bit) and that is enough to unbalance. The Goju Kata come from striking entries, but it is still the same throw.

 

Searched around and found this example, this is pretty much what I am talking about, and as you can see the entry is more percussive/aggressive. From my perspective, this throw is pretty common in Goju Kata, with a few variations. I really like this video, it is the closest thing I've seen on youtube to how I learned these, and gives me some additional ideas as well, there is some really good detail here. The "sukui nage blast" as he calls it around 1:07 is an exact match for the sequence in sanseiryu.

Frazatto
Frazatto's picture

Uh uh uh!!! I see!!! The position they end when the opponent is in the floor!!! It's gedan barai!!!

lol

We do that in Capoeira, but going high, it's very satisfying hahaha

Hummmm.....can I do that retreating????

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Frazatto wrote:

Uh uh uh!!! I see!!! The position they end when the opponent is in the floor!!! It's gedan barai!!!

lol

We do that in Capoeira, but going high, it's very satisfying hahaha

Hummmm.....can I do that retreating????

If you got them to step in the right place I guess, but you'd have to kind of reverse momentum once you did. I have never seen it taught like that, but I imagine it's possible, it seems like a pretty advanced or specialized way of doing the technique to me, it'd take some good timing I imagine. Stepping behind the foot is instrumental, and there you'd have to get them to step into you as you pivoted back, which is why I interpret the stepping back shiko as a different beast.