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css1971
css1971's picture
Are locks really locks?

I was just reading Wastelander's Joint Lock "Throws"  post and it's a good point. We treat locks as locks because well we have to train them. But are they really, were they really? I've never really considered them as anything other than compliance methods. Yes the throws are pretty.

We have gear to allow follow-through with full force on strikes but so far I haven't found anything but a training partner's limb for locking techniques, so we train to the point of tapping out and they then become compliance techniques. They're rather more brutal than that if you follow through with full force. Once you know how to apply one, how do you train a "lock" (wrist, arm, shoulder etc) with full force? Isn't training with a partner just the same as always pulling your punches and never hitting a punch bag?

Marc
Marc's picture

Very good point you raise there.

I think first of all we have Kata for that. We can train Kata with full speed follow through while visualising the opponent. Joint locks become joint breaks/dislocations when you add that snappy follow through feeling. Same goes for punches and kicks.

But you are right of course: For punching and kicking we have focus mitts, bags and stuff like that, which allow us to get an idea of how it might actually feel to punch somebody. Like the recoil an noise of a real gun as opposed to training with a toy gun that just clicks when you pull the trigger.

I'm not aware of training equipment for arm breaks or shoulder dislocation. I guess we could use old tree branches to improvise. But what we would really need is a sceleton model with breakable and re-attachable joints. A bit like a mixture of "Bob the dummy" and "plastic rebreakable boards" (use your favourite search enginge to see pictures).

I feel there's money in that.

All the best, Marc  

Very good point you raise there.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

I'm glad something I wrote has provided some food for thought! I certainly feel that the majority of what we typically call "joint locks" in karate were meant to be quick dislocations, or at least painful wrenches of the joint, rather than compliance techniques. That said, since karate was used by law enforcement and royal guards, it does also include some compliance techniques, which are sometimes called karamidi (arresting/restraining hand). Shoulder locks seem to be popular for that purpose.

There is always going to be a level of compliance involved in training, because there is no way to train with 100% realism while maintaining a responsible level of safety. When we train tuidi-waza (seizing hand techniques), which includes joint locks/dislocations/wrenches, we start out working them smoothly, like compliance techniques. Once you grow accustomed to doing them, and having them done to you, it's much easier to jolt them just enough to get the point--something like pulling your punch just enough to keep from knocking out your partner. That's something you might do a couple times a session, though, because it's very painful and if you do it too many times you are bound to overdo it.

As Marc suggests, we are definitely in need of an effective analog for limbs that can be twisted and dislocated in a realistic fashion. I have yet to find anything that really works for this purpose, unfortunately. As it stands, I do a few kinds of supplementary training to work on my tuidi. Sometimes I use a dowel rod to work on making a smooth transition into an elbow lock. Sometimes I use a battle rope to work on sticking to a limb that has give to it. Sometimes I use a kakiya/kakete-biki to work my strikes in with limb control and simple joint attacks. I've seen some people use 2" spa tubing to get a feel for the resistance of a limb when doing locks, and I've bought some and played with it a bit, but haven't figured out a way to mount it to something to make it really useful. All of these have been helpful to me, but none of them is truly realistic.

Tau
Tau's picture

Interesting thought. I think the problem here is that a joint lock can take so many forms, from fine rotations of the wrist through to brutal strikes to a joint. From a pragmatic perspective we can pretty much forget about techniques requiring fine or complex skills. Granted there are people who can make these work under pressure such as Rory Miller but these people are in the minority. So we want/need to train locks that require gross motor skills.... like striking!

If you take for example an elbow lock in which you hold the wrist and then apply pressure above the elbow to force hyperextension they can pressure can be trained much like how you would with striking. Consider an inwards-moving hammerfist strike such as a that found in Tekki Shodan or an out-to-in forearm block (which to me is Soto Uke.) They can be trained against focus mitts, thereby training your joint lock.

You also need to consider the objective of your technique and the context. You reference compliance and I would group that with "submission" in that we're seeking a fine and controlled lock not aiming for joint destruction. Think submission-grappling. But the joint locking skills that I would practice for Brazilian Jiujitsu are not the same as I would train for pragmatic Karate. For BJJ there is no good training substitute for sparring. On the other hand for pragmatic Karate we're using joint "locks" to facilitate striking and in a minimum amount of time. That should affect your training method.

TaiChi Mark
TaiChi Mark's picture

Hi - sorry it has taken me a while to remember where I'd seen this... a very simple method for training locks and limb destruction using a karate belt on a heavy bag.

I do not know Wim personally, but seems a very solid martial artist, and would be a "tai chi elder brother". Whilst it is pretty hard to replicate training locks to 100% what you clearly see here is training intent. This is very hard to do safely with a partner, I like to get near the "end" of a lock and then just focus a brief bit of power into it In a VERY restricted way, to remind myself of this intent, as in what I would need to Do if I intended to damage or break the joint. This could be one way to describe "Fa jing" or focussed power as mentioned in some other posts. I prefer the phrase "give it some Ooomph!"

interstingly I think this Is very similar to what  Iain is describing when he talks about the "shock loading" from the hops application in his Chinte video:

Just to add to the purpose of locks from a tai chi perspective, the names of tai chi techniques are often quite long and prosaic- The lock Wim demonstrates at 1.05 in the belt and heavy bag vid is called " drape the body" in the hand form, the shoulder lock at 2.30 is called "break arm style". This supports the views (and is my view) on the purpose of locks  as seen by the creators of our arts - either to put the opponent into a position of disadvantage (ie throw, takedown, destroyed posture) or to damage or break the joint. 

Thanks. Mark

Marc
Marc's picture

TaiChi Mark wrote:

a very simple method for training locks and limb destruction using a karate belt on a heavy bag

Thanks, that's actually a nice way of training to swiftly apply a lock. And you can combine it with punches and kicks, so you can practice to flow into the lock. A good idea!

What's still missing is the sensation of resistance and giving-in of the joint as you would follow through the "point of submission". Just like punching a bag or focus mitts lets you experience and get used to the heaviness you should expect when you hit somebody (as opposed to punching, say, a balloon). You can feel whether the power of your punch would be enough to have the desired effect.

Tau
Tau's picture

Dillon
Dillon's picture

We have a couple methods that we use to play hard with locks. The video of Wim above is one method. Another is that we'll set up heavy duty resistance bands on either a rogue rack, or some other relatively immovable object. Then you can practice the lock full speed and power, and use the resistance of the band to test your structure and movement. 

If you're working on people, you have to pick which flaw to introduce not to cripple your partner, similarly to striking. You can pick a poor target, "pull" the lock, or go slowly, for example. The bands and cords are the only way we've been able to play full speed and full power, but they lack some of the targeting of a partner. It's always a compromise.

sarflondonboydo...
sarflondonboydonewell's picture

As always some excellent points and training ideas shared. Focus pads, punch bags gives you excellent feedback, no two ways about it; application of locks when people ‘tap’I believe  is similar but accept sort of different.  

In Japan I remember training locks on arm size bamboo as it has pliability and therefore  resistance  an excellent training aid but no traing aid replaces the real thing.

How do you train a lock with full force? My view is one can't, as one is always going to be ‘pulling punches’ so to speak. In truth the physical brake  is a person’s pain tolerance which  is an individual thing so you are constantly  judging how much force to apply  in training were as when hitting the pads and bags one can let rip.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

For supplementary training to work locks hard, with resistance, you can use 2" diameter spa tubing. It's a bit pricey, unless you can find leftover pieces somewhere, or take apart an old spa. I have some, and it works really well for this! As much as I'd like to claim the idea, I got it from Garry Lever Sensei:

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Wastelander wrote:
For supplementary training to work locks hard, with resistance, you can use 2" diameter spa tubing. It's a bit pricey, unless you can find leftover pieces somewhere, or take apart an old spa. I have some, and it works really well for this! As much as I'd like to claim the idea, I got it from Garry Lever Sensei

Very clever! Thanks for sharing!

css1971
css1971's picture

Wastelander wrote:

For supplementary training to work locks hard, with resistance, you can use 2" diameter spa tubing.

This is a great idea.

Looks like other people have similar issues:

https://digital.lib.washington.edu/researchworks/bitstream/handle/1773/1...