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Antonio G
Antonio G's picture
Article : I have learnt only 1 kata in 3 years

Hello, here is an article on why you should learn kata : 

http://www.karatecolombes.fr/en/why-learn-kata/

Please read and share if you like it : comments are appreciated :)

Regards,

Antonio 

Anf
Anf's picture

Excellent article. At our club we are taught that forms should not be taken literally, but that we should look at how we move and how those movements could represent a range of different things. In karate terms, I don't think we can go too far wrong in taking note of what Gichin Funakoshi wrote. He repeatedly stresses that karate is a form of physical training that one person can do anywhere, without no need for either training partner or equipment. Funakoshi seemed to think that kata was the essence of karate. And if no other training methods were to be used, then kata alone would enable one to develop the art. I'm not experienced enough to say with any authority, but my own experience is that forms don't really teach techniques, but train movement from which one can naturally build technique instinctively. Perhaps as important, if not more so, they develop mental focus, balance, strength where it matters, cardiovascular fitness, good breathing control etc. They are, in a very real sense, a form of meditation in motion. All that said, I think all that goes out the window if performed as a robotic sequence that looks like the practioner is simply trying to replicate a sequence of poses from a text book.

Antonio G
Antonio G's picture

thank you Anf for your comment :)

I will try to add

Ian H
Ian H's picture

Great article.

In my style of karate, we are told that our style's founder, Chitose Tsuyoshi O'sensei, spent the first seven years of his karate training learining only one kata.  This is usually said to be Seisan.

I doubt most new practitioners in karate nowadays would have the patience to stick with only one kata for three years, let alone for seven.

Anf
Anf's picture

Ian H wrote:
I doubt most new practitioners in karate nowadays would have the patience to stick with only one kata for three years, let alone for seven

Gichin Funakoshi didn't. He discusses this point in one of his books. He wrote that many older masters stuck with one form for years, but he preferred to stick with one until he'd kind of roughly got it,then move onto the next.

Paul_L
Paul_L's picture

I must admit that about 18 months ago I would have thought that learning only one kata and practicing it over and over again was some weird oriental logic that belonged in a Karate Kid movie. Now I have started to realise that the more I think I know about a kata, the more I realise there is to learn.

Trying to nail a jelly to a wall is the phrase that comes to mind.

Marc
Marc's picture

Anf wrote:
Gichin Funakoshi didn't. He discusses this point in one of his books. He wrote that many older masters stuck with one form for years, but he preferred to stick with one until he'd kind of roughly got it,then move onto the next.

Can you give us the quote and the source, please?

Because in Karate-Do Kyohan he writes in the section on "How to Study the Kata" (my highlighting):

In the past, it was expected that about three years were required to learn a single kata, and it was usual that even an expert of considerable skill would only know three or at the most five kata. Thus, in short, it was felt that a superficial understanding of many kata was of little use. The aim of training reflected the precept expressed by the words, „Although the doorway is small, go deeply inward.“ I, too studied for ten years to really learn the three Tekki forms. However, since each form has its particular good points and because there is also benefit to be gained from knowing a wide selection of forms, one might well reconsider the practice of becoming deeply engrossed in very few forms. Whereas people in earlier times made deep studies of a narrow field, people today study widely and not deeply. It is not a good idea to follow one way or the other; it is better to take the middle way. For this reason, I have employed the method of advancing students as soon as they have a good grasp of a form to the next one, up through the fifth Heian form or the third Tekki form, and of then returning to the first for renewed practice. Once a form has been learned, it must be practiced repeatedly until it can be applied in an emergency, for knowledge of just the sequence of a form in karate is useless.

Kind regards,

Marc

Anf
Anf's picture

Marc wrote:
Can you give us the quote and the source, please?

Because in Karate-Do Kyohan he writes in the section on "How to Study the Kata" (my highlighting):

If you have the same edition of the book as me, it's on pages 36 and 37, under the heading 'three years for one kata in the old days'.

I only have my phone which is tedious to type on (no proper keyboard) so I'll just drop in some relevant nuggets. 'However because each kata has unique characterising, it is also very important to have a wide knowledge of them, so it is not advisable to cling too much to one kata. In general, the older generations knowledge tends to be narrow and deep while the modern generations knowledge tends to be wide and shallow. However it is not good to be at these extremes like them. It is best to keep a moderate course. What the author recommends and teaches is that once you've generally learned the knack if something, move onto the next step'.

Further down in the same page however, he does recommend that we repeatedly 'go back to where you started, and practice repetitiously'. Perhaps it's open to a bit of interpretation, but I take that to mean it's right to learn each form just enough before moving onto the next, but with the massive caveat that we don't simply show it for a grading then ditch it. In our club, regardless of grade, you can be demoted right back to white belt if it transpires that you don't fully get the first basic form. Therefore although we are not expected to fully understand all the intricacies of a form when we demo it at grading, we are expected to continue to refine it indefinitely over time. I think this is broadly in line with what Funakoshi was trying to convey.

Marc
Marc's picture

Anf,

that seems to be a different translation/edition. But it seems to be the same text.

Probably just little misunderstanding here.

My reply referred to your statement that "Gichin Funakoshi didn't" learn katas over a long time and that "he preferred to stick with one until he'd kind of roughly got it,then move onto the next", while clearly he stated that it took him "ten years to really learn the three Tekki forms".

So Funakoshi himself actually did stick to one kata over several years, but for his own students he recommends learning several katas and revisiting them again and again. However, he makes it clear that just being able to perform the katas is not enough in the long term. They must be studied thoroughly enough until the adept will be able to use them for self-defence.  

Anf
Anf's picture

Ah sorry yes. I see where the misunderstanding has arisen from now. My fault. Sorry. I wasn't saying that Gichin Funakoshi didn't learn a kata over a long period. My careless 'Gichin Funakoshi didn't' line was meant to mean that he didn't seem to have the patience to learn just one kata over many years. He does indeed say it took him 10 years to truly learn one kata, but he doesn't seem to say that in that time he only learned that one, or that we should. In that respect, I not only see his point, but believe it will be the same for most, in that most can replicate a form after just a few weeks of practice. But I think those who really want to learn (ie those who are not what I call belt chasers) will acknowledge that it's going to take years to truly take all the lessons from that one form. For me, the pinnan / pyung ahn forms are so fascinating. They are considered 'basic', but even after years of practicing them, I keep suddenly finding new lessons in them. I think there's an entire combat system in pinnan alone. But I find that sometimes it's something from a later lesson that sheds new light on an earlier one.

Marc
Marc's picture

Thanks for the clarification, Anf.  

Marc
Marc's picture

Might it be a problem, that since ancient times (first half of the 20th century ;-) gradings have been associated with specific katas that the students have to be able to perform per grading?

For example, in my association we have Shotokan gradings associated with one kata for each kyu grade (Taikyoku for 9th kyu, Heian 1-5 for 8th to 4th kyu, Tekki Shodan for 3rd kyu, and so on). The students must also be able to perform all the katas from their previous gradings.

There are also technical grading requirements like posture, precision of technique, hip control, and some more, as well as qualitative requirements like knowledge of kata applications, depending on grade.

The technical and qualitative skills can be aquired through regular training, no matter which kata students practice. The longer you practice, the more you develop your skills. From my personal point of view there's nothing inherent in the katas that makes them beginner, intermediate or advanced katas. Historically each kata was a stand-alone system. Is Jion really much more difficult or complex than Heian Godan? I don't think so. Sure some katas are longer than others or more athletic.

Do you agree that for a beginner it does not really matter which kata they learn first, second and so on? (Maybe it makes sense to learn Heians in order, because they build on one another.)

If so, would it make sense to change the grading requirements to just require one kata for the first grading, then two for the second, then three for the third, and so on? If your style has less than 10 or so katas then it would be one more kata every two grades or similar. But we would not specifiy which kata for which grade.

An advantage of this idea would be that all students could train together in one class. We could work on a single kata for an entire year, and then examin everybody to their next grade at the end of the year, but they all would do the same kata. The beginners would have to perform the kata and show some basic skills, while the advanced students would have to show better skills and deeper understanding of the principles/concepts.

The way it is now, if every student would be graded say once a year, we have to teach all the katas for the different grades throughout each year. So it would be best if we had 9 different classes for the 9 kyu grades and some more for the dan grades. - At least in the clubs where I train we don't have enough instructors to do that, and it would be much less fun to train because the big group would be split onto in small sub-groups.

What do you think? - How do you handle the fact that you have to teach different katas to all the different graders?

All the best,

Marc  

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Marc wrote:
Might it be a problem, that since ancient times (first half of the 20th century ;-) gradings have been associated with specific katas that the students have to be able to perform per grading?

I think that’s part of it. The grading system is not probably not the prime cause, but it can be a key part of the issue. The said grading structure arose out of how people were training, and then how people are training now is often determined by the grading system. If people were training in a “form over function” way (and many were), the grading system can end up perpetuating that.

Marc wrote:
Do you agree that for a beginner it does not really matter which kata they learn first, second and so on? (Maybe it makes sense to learn Heians in order, because they build on one another.)

I would agree beginners can start with any kata. They were, after all, intended to be stand-alone systems. However, it makes sense to learn kata sets in order i.e. Naihanchi 1, then Naihanchi 2, then Naihanchi 3. It also makes sense to consider the historical evolution of kata too. Miyagi intended the Gekisai kata to be a universal introduction to “naha-te”, so if you are learning those and other naha kata, you should really do the Gekisai kata first. A similar situation exists with the Pinan / Heian series i.e. if you are doing that set, you should do them before Kushanku, Passai, etc. If you’re not, then there’s no reason why people could not start with Kushanku.

Marc wrote:
What do you think? - How do you handle the fact that you have to teach different katas to all the different grades?

The simple solution is to move to a grading system that does not promote the superficial learning of kata. We have 10 kyu grades, and spread across them is the five Pinans and Naihanchi (shodan). They are tested on the kata and all core bunkai drills for them. As an example, at 9th kyu they have to do the first half of Pinan Shodan, and the four bunkai drills that go with that half. At 8th kyu, they do the full kata and all eight drills (including the four “new” ones). The kata per grade is not an issue for use because that’s not how we do things.  8 to 10 years to first dan, and six kata during that time, means we learn them thoroughly.

One of the key reasons we get people joining the WCA (World Combat Association) is because they want to belong to an organisation that will encourage and help them develop a grading system that mirrors the way they want to train.

If people do have a grading structures that competes with in-depth learning, and if they can’t / don’t want to change that, and if grading regularly is a driver for students, then they have little option but to primarily focus on solo performance. A little bit of bunkai can be done, but in-depth study will have to wait until there is time … probably between dan grades. The end result is the same i.e. people know the kata and understand the bunkai, but a period of superficial learning would seem to be unavoidable.

All the best,

Iain

Marc
Marc's picture

Thanks for your answer, Iain. With just 6 katas for 10 grades I think you've found a good balance of wide vs deep, especially if your would count Pinan1-5 as one entity. As I read on the website of your home dojo, you have a separate beginners’ course that is aimed to get students ready for their first grading; after which they will join the main group to continue their training. So, in your main group, do you cycle through all 6 katas (and drills) throughout the year in a particular order or do you teach them side by side with the other instructors on your team? Do you have special training time reserved for your team of instructors and/or very experienced members?

How about you, forum members?

Do you agree that for a beginner it does not really matter which kata they learn first, second and so on? (Maybe keeping the Heians/Pinans or Naihanchis in order.)

How do you handle the fact that you have to teach different katas (and drills/applications) to all the different graders?  

Mark B
Mark B's picture

I teach my Naihanchi boxing system in both my adult and junior classes as the only form practiced up to Shodan. It is important to understand that within the Naihanchi boxing system everything is included - power generation, structure, movement, sticking, trapping etc. The senior syllabus will then introduce the Aragaki Seisan and Passai forms. The juniors however stay with Naihanchi after junior Shodan to begin learning the deeper lessons and concepts not taught through the junior syllabus. As I do teach the Naihanchi boxing system as a system in and of itself my students will in fact spend many years around one form. The trick to keeping the interest levels is to essentially aim to make the form "formless", which creates endless possibilities for training. The other two kata are added to demonstrate possible variations and specific which can enhance the learning experience once the student has reached a decent level of proficiency with regards to actually being able to use their Naihanchi should they need to for actual self defence. Regards

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Marc wrote:
you have a separate beginners’ course that is aimed to get students ready for their first grading; after which they will join the main group to continue their training.

That’s right. We keep the beginners separate. They learn basic striking, gripping, pad-drills, pre-emption, very basic live drills, and we cover basic awareness and avoidance issues. They do no kata at that stage though. Once they have been checked off as having sufficient competence on the 10th kyu material, we grade them to 9th kyu. One part of their training at that rank is learning the first half of Pinan Shodan and the four bunkai drills that go with it.

Marc wrote:
So, in your main group, do you cycle through all 6 katas (and drills) throughout the year in a particular order or do you teach them side by side with the other instructors on your team?

I see a very definite progression though the Pinans that the student needs to follow. So, they learn them in a very definite order. It would make no sense to cycle through them becasue it would mean people not starting at the start.

Our main class has 9th kyus at one end and a 5th dan at the other (Murray). I have no problem structuring the class so everyone is working on appropriate material. For example, while the kyu grades are working their basic bunkai, the dan grades can be working the more advanced material right alongside them.

I don’t see the need to have everyone doing exactly the same thing at the same time … but they are all working at the same time.

I do sometimes get the dan grades to pair up / get into groups with kyu grades and help for brief periods, but the vast majority of the teaching in any session is done by me alone. The black belts are there to train. They need to leave the session having been technically and physically challenged too. They are not there to teach.

Marc wrote:
Do you have special training time reserved for your team of instructors and/or very experienced members?

We do have a session that is just 3rd kyus and above mainly to go through the detail of material they are relatively new to (i.e. teaching the detail of “advanced kata”, etc.), but the majority of the higher grades training is done alongside the kyu grades.

They will all do kihon at the same time, but the kihon they do is different. They will all do the pinan kata, but the kyu grades will drop off to work on other things as the higher grades work their kata. If we are doing basic bunkai drills, it is good to sometimes pair dan grades with kyu grades because it makes the kyu grades progress faster (the dan grades need to keep on top of the basics too of course). I can then shuffle the class around so kyu grades are with each other to carry on working their bunkai drills, and the dan grades can pair up with each other to work their more advanced drills.

As I say, I think it is relatively easy to structure a session where you can have the inexperienced and the highly experienced (most of the dan grades in our group have been training for at least 15 years) all working alongside each other in a way that gives everyone a good and productive training session. It’s just a matter of structing the activities correctly.  

I therefore don’t see the need to cycle instruction so everyone is doing the exact same thing at the exact same time. I don’t think that would be either productive or enjoyable. In my view, it is much better to structure the training so people can be at different points along a structured progression while still sharing the same dojo time.

All the best,

Iain

Neil Babbage
Neil Babbage's picture

This could develop into a long debate about syllabus content, which I know wasn't the thrust of the original post. But I thought I'd post some thoughts on this as we're going through a syllabus re-development and the thought process might be helpful (or not). The current syllabus is similar to Iain's (for reasons he is well aware of!) and has kata, bunkai, grappling, groundwork, basics, combinations of basics, pad work, sparring and a small number of self-defence techniques not normally found in karate. While some of it is logical - learning the bunkai that go with the kata for a particular kyu grade - there are pockets of illogical. For example, at the 5th kyu arm and leg locks appear. However, the student is actually first exposed to arm locks when learning the second 4 bunkai from Heian Shodan (the 5th and 7th drills in Iain's DVDs) at the 7th kyu. So, as we are restructuring the syllabus we're moving the content around so that the basic technique appears in the kyu grade before the one that has the bunkai. In the example I just gave, the student will learn the two locks at 8th kyu so they are familiar with them before trying to learn the bunkai at 7th kyu. I'm hoping this will make the bunkai easier to learn and, more importantly, more likely to be performed with committment and controlled agression because the student isn't also trying to learn the basic technique at the same time.

Tau
Tau's picture

A thought for you. One friend of mine works differently to most.

He runs a rolling program through the Pinan kata. They are taught in order but everyone learns the same one. So if you join during the time that Sandan is being learning, you learn Sandan, Yondan, Godan, Nidan, and then Shodan. I confess to not knowing which order he does Nidan and Shodan in but let's not muddy the waters on that matter. So, after five gradings everyone has learned the same five kata. This enables class focus and emphasis on the same material which certainly does have advantages. My personal view is that the disadvantages are more significant. 

Thoughts?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Tau wrote:
They are taught in order but everyone learns the same one. So if you join during the time that Sandan is being learning, you learn Sandan, Yondan, Godan, Nidan, and then Shodan.

I can see the logic of that if you are teaching the solo form alone (as you may when teaching a kids’ class). It would not work for me though for the aforementioned reasons. Our Pinan bunkai drills build on each other, so it would be a little like starting work on the 5th floor then the ground floor has not been built. It’s for the same reason that the first kata learnt is Pinan Shodan (what would be Heian Nidan in Shotokan); whereas as most would start with Nidan first. Again, I think the bunkai of Shodan needs to be learnt first so we can build on it with the material in Nidan.

That’s based on my specific bunkai drills though, and my specific syllabus. It would not be a good fit for me, but I can see how getting a group to focus on one specific form can be sensible in the right circumstances.

All the best,

Iain