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John M Avilla
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Basai Dai; a bunkai and a question

At the end of the Shotokan version there is some shifty footwork and shuto uke following the second large circular arm motion and shifting front stance. I believe that this second circular motion is meant to be a knockout strike. The knife hand sequence that follows is the follow up in the case that your attacker is only stunned. Your stunned attacker goes for a takedown. You see this happen all the time in MMA fights. You even see very stunned guys trying to take down the ref sometimes. The first shuto uke is to gain control. You then take the opponent to one side to unbalance him. You see this same principle displayed by Muay Thai fighters in the clinch. They will move the opponent side to side and use kicks similar to those in Tekki Shodan/Naihanchi to set up throws. As you do this you turn your hand palm up and slip it under the back of his collar to grip. Shift forward and use the back leg of your knife stance to trip him. As he falls forward you cradle his head with what was the knife hand and perform the final shuto uke. The combo of this hand motion and the opponent's body weight will result in, best case scenario (for him) a severe neck crank and at worst a broken neck.

This bunkai raises a few questions. First, is it useful to know in today's society? If I can pull this off, couldn't I have gotten away? Have we moved beyond self defense here into a realm of techniques that may only be useful to a handful of special opps guys? These and a plethora of other such questions come to mind but when ever I practice this kata, it is this bunkai I am meditating on. So all that aside, does anyone have any ideas on how one might drill this without seriously injuring training partners? Despite its limited utility for self defense I have to admit that I really, REALLY, like this bunkai and I would like to drill it but I am kind of drawing a blank. Thanks in advance for any input you guys might have. Also, feel free to write about your own bunkai for this sequence as well. 

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

I think a video would be very helpful in working out exactly what you're going for, here, as trying to envision an application from a text description isn't always the most accurate thing, especially when the descriptions are rather vague ("shifty footwork" and "circular arm motions" aren't all that specific). Honestly, I'm not sure which sequence you're talking about to even make my own suggestions for applications. In general, though, since you're describing a neck cranking technique, you have to have the uke "go with it," at some point. They can resist you getting the crank in the first place, or slip out of it as it's being applied, but for safety you kind of have to just move with it once it's locked on or someone could get hurt. The person doing the crank needs to be cautious, too, and lower the uke gently. Sometimes, depending on the crank, you can also start the motion on the uke, and then release your grip and crank the rest of the way in the air, to account for the speed/power intended without hurting your partner--I do this with joint locks sometimes, as well. You can work the same motion with resistance bands or weights, to get a better feel for the effort required, as well. It all goes back to Iain's "training matrix" concept, that every training method has some sort of compromise, and you have to account for that by supplementing with other training methods to cover the gaps.

John M Avilla
John M Avilla's picture

Sorry if that seemed vague. It is the ending sequence. I assumed familiarity with Bassai Dai so I figured everyone would get what I meant by shifty foot work but I can see how that might confuse. No video capabilities at the moment so to elaborate you've just completed the the U-punch sequence, turned and performed the first big looping motion with the right arm. I am interpreting this as a throw. You then shift to a right front stance from the left front stance you ended the throwing sequence in and perform the second big looping motion with the left arm. I am interpreting this as a finishing blow. Then, to deal with an opponent who is only stunned you go into the closing sequence of the kata. Your opponent has grabbed you and is attempting to take you down. Use your left arm to grab under his right and pull him up then move into a 45 degree back stance (right leg forward) while performing shuto uke. Shift the right foot 90 degrees back and pull him off balance. Secure the grip under his collar and shift forward into a left foot forward back stance HARD while pulling him over your rear leg. As he falls the right hand catches his head. Perform shuto uke to twist head. Hope that clarifies. If not I don't think having video capabilities would help as I am not about to do this to someone, lol. Like I said I am drawing a complete blank as to how to drill this.

John M Avilla
John M Avilla's picture

One idea that comes to mind is that one might just cradle their partners head and gently guide them to the mat but even that seems risky. As a person with some pretty severe spinal injuries myself I would not want to take too many risks with another person's neck. I don't even like to practice can openers on people.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

I wondered if that was the sequence you meant. I also see the twist/low scoop after the yama-tsuki as a throw, and I can see the second scooping motion as a strike to the downed opponent. I've also been taught using shuto-uke as a neck crank, although I'm personally not that fond of it. We have never had any issues in our dojo with people doing as I described in my previous post for neck cranks, for what that's worth.

John M Avilla
John M Avilla's picture

Cool. I don't suppose your Dojo is anywhere near the south coast of Massachusetts?

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

John M Avilla wrote:

Cool. I don't suppose your Dojo is anywhere near the south coast of Massachusetts?

No such luck--Scottsdale, AZ--although several of us who teach at the dojo can be brought out for seminars

John M Avilla
John M Avilla's picture

If I ever get out there I will look you up then. 

Marc
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Hi John,

just to clarify for  folks, which part of Bassai-Dai you're talking about. It is the last few moves of the kata (Shotokan version). Here's a video with the sequence starting at 1:03 with the big looping motions followed by the Shuto-Uke-sequence about 4 seconds later.

 

I think I kind of get what what your application of the Shuto-Sequence might look like, but the picture is not 100 percent clear yet.

When it comes to cranking the neck, we must be ever so careful when training with a partner. So loosen the grip a little bit and do it very slowly with a lot of control. To practice it with more force maybe you can get your hands on a Bob? But in the end the solo performance of kata is the way to do it with full speed and intent while visualising the application.

John M Avilla
John M Avilla's picture

Marc wrote:
just to clarify for  folks, which part of Bassai-Dai you're talking about. It is the last few moves of the kata (Shotokan version). Here's a video with the sequence starting at 1:03 with the big looping motions followed by the Shuto-Uke-sequence about 4 seconds later.

Correct, I am talking about the final sequence. I agree that visualization is the way to go as far as full force practice. I also like the direction of your thought regarding Bob. Maybe the way to go is to build a fully articulated dummy. 

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

It’s always tricky to follow written descriptions because different people visualise them differently. Here are a couple of videos I’ve done that sequence, which maybe have some commonality with what you are describing?

All the best,

Iain