Basic Pinan Shodan Flow Drill...clip

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the kind words about the clip! Really pleased you liked it! The ratings thing is being fixed as I type and should be working again soon … so by all means please go back and give it a retrospective 5 stars :-)

I hope to be adding video on a relatively regular basis and I’m really pleased the first one has proved useful!

All the best,

Iain

nice clip Iain - keep them coming, I see what your demonstrating as a solid drill from the kata - one of many I would say.

Would have been nice to see your partner 'flow' back with you for the drill so we could see how it's done in a 2 man context.

I really like 'clearing' arms with the opening of Pinan Shodan, we do a low Gedan Uke on the third move that usually ends up locking the person down - our flow is high, middle, low.

shoshinkanuk wrote:

Nice clip Iain - keep them coming, I see what your demonstrating as a solid drill from the kata - one of many I would say.

Thank you very much! There are loads of such drills (we have 40 or so basic ones for the Pinan series) and then there are all the variations and combinations. As you say, there are many such drills waiting to be extracted from kata.

shoshinkanuk wrote:

Would have been nice to see your partner 'flow' back with you for the drill so we could see how it's done in a 2 man context.

In the vast majority of the flow drills I do the enemy does not” flow back”. Personally I don’t care for drills like that because I see them as allowing the enemy to “have a turn” and what we really want is to overwhelm and dominate. We do have flow drills where the enemy can try to protect themselves or regain the initiative; and in those instances Tori negates those attempts and continues to dominate.

The way that would work for this drill – when a few extra elements have been added – is that uke could block any technique; and when they have done so tori has effectively located the other arm and would then switch to flowing around that arm until uke once again tries to stop one of the techniques which would lead to a switch back.

What I like about constructing flow drills in that way is that they are “predatory” and I feel they better foster the right mindset. I find “back and forth” flow drills (i.e. I attack you, you attack me, I attack you, etc) to be too passive and neutral in mindset for my tastes. I know such drills are very common and people find they work for them, but it’s not how I choose to structure things.

We always have one person establishing and maintaining a position of advantage (from positive, neutral and negative positions). So once a position of dominance is achieved, it is never relinquished unless to flee. In our drills we never have people relinquishing advantage to allow the partner to have “their go” - which is what back and forth drills demand by their very structure – because I don’t want to ingrain the habit of “letting the emery have a turn”. We stop the drill, and then restart so the other person can practise graining and maintaining advantage.

If the enemy does get back into the fight then we messed up, and while we certainly practise correcting such mistakes (because messing up is always a possibility), I don’t want to practise the making those mistakes as a matter of habit.

I hope that explains how I chose to do things OK? I’ll be sure to show more as the weeks and months go by so people can see how we structure things in a wider context.

All the best,

Iain

 I found the clip, good stuff...you taught this one to us at crossing the pond. I really liked this one, it's actually quite applicable to Goju as well with some very minor tweaks, and I assume to any style really.

I find myself swayed on the "one sided" flow drills thing, it seems like part of a good flow drill is teaching mechanics such that uke cannot respond properly, allowing an opportunity for him to do so usually seems to mean creating an artificial break in the drill.

I've done some of this kind of thing experiementing with what I have learned from Kris, mainly from Seuinchin kata. i've found that we could do it two ways: Have some artificial breaks where uke "responds" so that tori has to block and retaliate, or you can use the same motions where (if done with no breaks) uke has no chance to fire back in the first place, which is probably the preferable way.

Hi Iain,

Yes I understand where your coming from - and im with you, but just to make a point the opponent isnt just going to stand there right?

The will do something, get hit, cover, move, hit out, grab etc etc - does your drill develop to allow this type of responce from your opponent?

I agree the standard back and forth can be very limiting, we do it some of the time, we also work how your showing some of the time, onesided - but I find the best somewhere in the middle, back and forth but with variation, broken timing, alterating distance etc etc.

shoshinkanuk wrote:

Yes I understand where your coming from - and I’m with you, but just to make a point the opponent isn’t just going to stand there right?

The will do something, get hit, cover, move, hit out, grab etc etc - does your drill develop to allow this type of response from your opponent?

That’s exactly right. To start with the partner will simply sit still so the student can develop the basic idea (as shown on the clip). Once they have that, the uke / enemy is then permitted to defend themselves and move as descried in my post above:

Iain Abernethy wrote:

The way that would work for this drill – when a few extra elements have been added – is that uke could block any technique; and when they have done so tori has effectively located the other arm and would then switch to flowing around that arm until uke once again tries to stop one of the techniques which would lead to a switch back.

You would then add in attempts to regain the initiative which would again be neutralised and flowed around.

The DVD that is being edited together at the moment (“Beyond Bunkai”) shows the full process for this kind of drill as it relates to Naihanchi / Tekki Shodan. It starts with a basic way to attain dominance and then we keep adding in various elements as the DVD progresses. It ends up with a very energetic free flowing drill where tori maintains dominance with a variety of methods – flowing around the various covers, blocks, grips, gouges, clinches, etc that uke presents – until fleeing. When that DVD comes out, I’ll put the odd clip on the site to help illustrate the process some more and in relation to another kata.

I find such drills very beneficial (and fun) but ultimately sparring (of the holistic kata- based variety) remains the true test if things have been internalised. I see drills as a very valuable supplement to that sparring, but they are very much a means to an end and I think we always need to be careful that we don’t start doing drills to get good at drills (i.e. the drill becomes an end it itself).

shoshinkanuk wrote:

I find the best somewhere in the middle, back and forth but with variation, broken timing, alterating distance etc etc.

That unpredictability and variety is so important too. Fixed, always the same, drills – if they are not used as a base and ultimately moved on from – can develop “expectations” of the enemy (i.e. the enemy will move now, block this now, etc). I like the sound of the way you add in that unpredictability and variety.

It’s avoiding that “drilling to get good at drills” thing in favor of “drilling to improve combative skill” (where things are not fixed or predictable). There are many ways to achieve that and the drills used need to fit into the wider context of the overall approach to training too.

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy wrote:

 In the vast majority of the flow drills I do the enemy does not” flow back”. Personally I don’t care for drills like that because I see them as allowing the enemy to “have a turn” and what we really want is to overwhelm and dominate. We do have flow drills where the enemy can try to protect themselves or regain the initiative; and in those instances Tori negates those attempts and continues to dominate.

Iain

I absolutely agree with this Iain. :)   A flow drill should be about learning to string techniques together and adapt to different 'uke' positions, not exchanging techniques back and forth.  It should be about taking and keeping the initiative.  That's certainly what I had in mind with the Heian Flow System when I put it together. 

JWT

Hi John,

I like the line below. I thinks it's a nice "mission statement" for the kind of flow drills I prefer and says in once sentence what it took me a few paragraphs to state.

JWT wrote:

A flow drill should be about learning to string techniques together and adapt to different 'uke' positions, not exchanging techniques back and forth.

I like it!

All the best,

Iain

I do see real value in the 'one sided' drills, and of course we use them.

I also see utility in the back and forth as it forces a change of mindset to both sides, I realise myself and Iain have slightly different opinions on this of course.

One thing I don't like is over use of back and forth drills in a set manner - yes it's a starting point but resistance and variation (as mentioned before) should be introduced quickly, granted this can have a detrimental effect on 'clean' technique delivery, but it is the essence of functional technique delivery.

Much of my training involves my will 'failing' and how to cope, survival being the golden rule of self - defence, once failed of course we need to get back on top as quickly as possible or we will not survive.

Great topic this one.

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Hi John,

I like the line below. I thinks it's a nice "mission statement" for the kind of flow drills I prefer and says in once sentence what it took me a few paragraphs to state.

JWT wrote:

A flow drill should be about learning to string techniques together and adapt to different 'uke' positions, not exchanging techniques back and forth.

I like it!

All the best,

Iain

Hi Iain,

Thanks. :)  One of my new years resolutions was that I would find the time to post on this forum and have more 'conversations' here on a regular basis. :)

JWT

Hi John,

JWT wrote:

One of my new years resolutions was that I would find the time to post on this forum and have more 'conversations' here on a regular basis. :)

Fantastic! That will be great addition to the forum! I always enjoy your insights and open approach to sharing knowledge. Great! :-)

All the best,

Iain