Bassai/Passai - which is the correct one

Hi,

once upon a time there was an old master. After 30 years of training he accepted a student an taught him a kata he had formulated based on all his martial knowledge. After three years of training the student mastered the kata and left to teach his own students.

After 20 more years of training (total of 50 years) he accepted a new student. In these 20 years of training the kata he once formulated changed a lot to fit his new and better understanding of the art. After three years of training the student mastered the kata and left the old master to teach his own students.

Now both of the old masters former students meet and they show each other the kata they once learned. An argument started on who's kata is the correct one.

What is the answer to that? Is older always better?

Regards Holger

Then you get New versions which are very different

Kyokushin Stylee

Hi all,

Some really interesting versions there, nice one. As for your question, I have no idea which is the correct one, or even if any can be considered incorrect.

I have been spending a lot of my time recently studying different versions of Wanshu/Empi. The obvious thing when looking at kata borne of different lineage or influences is the quite significant differences, on occasions almost to the point of being unrecognisable.

The pragmatic conclusion would be that personal combative preference resulted in individuals altering  a particular sequence, although in the more modern competition arena the pure visual aspect would result in changes.

It would be great to know the true correct version of all the kata, but I think this an impossible goal.

Fascinating and central to our learning to see the old-style kata and which parts were changed by masters and which remained.   We can try to understand why the masters who changed them did so rather than just accepting the end result.

For bunkai analysis:   did the change signify a completely different application,  or a subtle difference but same idea.  Subtle changes could help confirm and clarify our own applications for current versions (just done slightly differently),  or help see a better application that fitted both the old and new version.

Having said that,  I for one could not see much of the Bassai Dai I know in the first video – the Chinese version.  It would be interesting if anyone could point out the common bits?

I saw quite a lot of what I see in Nijushiho in the first of your videos Black Tiger.

i have an old document from black belt mag by fumio demora which breaks down several of the bassai/passai verions. ill have to see where i can upload it too and link it to here

it makes for an interseting read

Kokoro wrote:

i have an old document from black belt mag by fumio demora which breaks down several of the bassai/passai verions. ill have to see where i can upload it too and link it to here

it makes for an interseting read

That would be good, unless Iain has any way of adding the same details etc

Kokoro wrote:

i have an old document from black belt mag by fumio demora which breaks down several of the bassai/passai verions. ill have to see where i can upload it too and link it to here

it makes for an interseting read

i too would love to read the article..

this is taken forever to upload into scribd.com

if it doesnt upload ill have to find another way. if anyone has any ideas let me know. its about 7.3meg in size.

J

ok i finally got it, i uploaded it to to scribd. sorry for the poor quality, i downloaded it from another site and had to rescan it in.

one thing i know demura sensei mentioned to us once is that passai/bassai all the verison start with the left foot except for the japanese verions. also he only considers there to be 13 verions. i dont know why he doesnt consider the others.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/129229636/bassai

J

Hi Kokoro. I just wanted to thank you so much for sharing.

Yes, me too. thanks very much.

You all more then welcome. I just wish it was in better condition. Or wish I could remember the web site I downloaded it from. I'm still tring to find that.

One of my questions of bassia or passai, is what is the interpretation of stepping out with the left foot first. (Only the okinawa versions do the kata this way)