Black belt embroidery

Hi Gaz,

I've never heard of this. So I would never guess what dan grade a beltholder owns according to the colour of the embroidery. 

I know a whole bunch of people with no embroidery at all. My belt has no embroidery either. My sensei has his embroidery on one side red and on the other side white. I think for most people in the karate world it is a matter of personal taste and nothing else.

Regards Holger.

I until recently had a plain Belt. It was my students who got me a Embroidered belt in Silver. I just has the Name of the school and my name in Japanese Kanji

I don't agree with Dan Bars as some, not all, but some get some "hype" about the number of Bars on their belts.

I know some Kempo'ists have some big belts with Blocks (stipulating 5 Dan Bars) and then extra stripes, not for me I'm afraid

Although I do have a Black And Red Block Belt for 4th Dan and Above as these are Time awarded Grades and it distinguishes between the senior Non-Technical Graded Yudansha (although it is expected for the Dan grade to perform All the Kata in the Syllabus to the expected standard)

I never heard of specific colours depicting specific grades, I always though the "Whiter" the Black belt, the higher the grade. I also don't think its a Shotokan thing either, I think its possibly specific to your particular school

Going off topic, sorry, but just to answer Black Tiger

Black Tiger wrote:

I don't agree with Dan Bars as some, not all, but some get some "hype" about the number of Bars on their belts.

One friend of mine who I have  a lot of respect for doesn't believe in "go-faster" stripes on belts. My personal view is that if arrogance creeps in then that's the flaw of the individual, not the grade. Having Dan bars on the belt is just for easy recognition. Of course standards aren't consistent across schools, styles and arts anyway. I think if you abandon Dan bars then you might as well abandon coloured belts. If nothing else, in dojo that practice such formality, it tells you where to line up.

Black Tiger wrote:

I know some Kempo'ists have some big belts with Blocks (stipulating 5 Dan Bars) and then extra stripes, not for me

I'm a Kempo Jujitsu practitioner (among other things). I'm not going to go into arguements as to whether "titles" are being overused / overawarded or anything as that's a discussion for another day. My understanding is that when I'm a student, say at a seminar or Masters' class then I wear my black belt with Dan bars to show my grade. When I'm teaching then I wear my Block belt to show my "title" (Renshi for Kempo Jujitsu, but I also have black-and-gold for Master status in Aiki-Jujitsu). Grade strips and blocked belts don't mix well. One or the other.

It's all about status and swinging your big thing about infront of others?

I have my name and shotokan.

I have no intention on placing dan bars or anything else on it, or buying one that has !

Tau wrote:

I'm a Kempo Jujitsu practitioner (among other things). I'm not going to go into arguements as to whether "titles" are being overused / overawarded or anything as that's a discussion for another day. My understanding is that when I'm a student, say at a seminar or Masters' class then I wear my black belt with Dan bars to show my grade. When I'm teaching then I wear my Block belt to show my "title" (Renshi for Kempo Jujitsu, but I also have black-and-gold for Master status in Aiki-Jujitsu). Grade strips and blocked belts don't mix well. One or the other.

Tau, an honour and privilage to discuss this topic with you.

With regards to the Stripes, there are a lot of Wado Ryu/Kai, Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu Karateka that don't have the Dan bars (Go Faster Stripes - as your friend describes them). My thoughts are that if you came into a room where Dan grades were training, without the need from Dan Bars from their respective abilities you should be able to distinguish what grade each person there is. One of my Instructors always used to "throw" his grade about  "I'm a X Dan and they're a Y Dan so I been training longer ....... (if you understand what I mean), Its from this that I decided for my school I would not entertain them. Coloured belts are a Western invention as previously there was only 3 colours White, Brown and Black. Coloured belts are not the same in many schools, mine go White, Red, Purple, Blue, Yellow, Orange, Green, Brown, Brown/Black Stripe, Brown/Black Split length belts then Black to Black/Red Block - totally different to other schools.

Totally agree with you with regards to the second point, I wear my Block belt in Class and Gradings etc, and wear my Black belt at seminars etc.

Also, Tau would you explain to me the difference between Kempo Jujitsu and Kempo Karate, do they both stem from Grandmaster Ed Parker, To me Ed Parker is someone I look up to I have adopted his "I come to you with only Karate, empty hands............."

I'm pro Dan grade, but I take your point. Aikido Sensei used to say "you know what grade someone is when you get your hands on them!"

I find "Kempo" to be very ill defined but as far as I can tell all Kempo in Britain is descended from Ed Parker. The organisation that I'm a part of had three founders all of who had Sensei who had combined Kempo strikes with Jujitsu locks and throws. There do seem to be common principles such as use of Kyushu. I've also been to Kempo Karate seminars where the Sensei seemed to me to be doing soothing akin to Shaolin Kempo that actually bridged the gap between styles really well. Of course, Kempo has roots in Wushu anyway.

Dan bars can have more significence in something like TKD as it can have (depending on preference) a fairly strict line up pattern that is dependent on grade order. As such you need a quick visual "tag" that tells you who goes where.

Not sure that Karate is generally that structured?

I know my Shidokan uses the same sort of line up (and has dan bars).

Personally I'd prefer a plain black belt that I can wear at TKD AND Shidokan (should I get one).

I have never heard of there being a significance to the colour of any embroidery.

I have my name in English down one side and Goju Ryu in kanji down the other, as do all of our dan grades (their own name not mine - that would just be weird...). I was given my belt when I achieved Shodan and do the same for all of my guys. I have had the same belt ever since that day.

I personally do not like the idea of dan bars or indeed anything that indicates rank over and above Shodan as the whole belt system has symbolic underpinnings that negate this use of external imagery.

In the early stages the coloured belts (3, 5 or 10 - makes no difference) represent external drives, challenges and goals. As we progress you get a very obvious and external symbol of that achievement. Essential for children and more important for adults that we are perhaps comfortable admitting.

This reward system gradually slows down (2 or 3 brown belts in the high kyu grades) to the point where you achieve black belt and what this is supposed to represent, is that the holder has made the transition from external drives, to internal ones. Now, as a non-novice beginner (Shodan) all of your drives and goals are supposed to be internal and any progress you make from this point forward, is not supposed to need any external imagery or symbolism.

This is also why I struggle a bit with the concept of child black belts as it is simply not possible for a child to make this transition.

Anyway, the black belt is meant to say, 'ok, we have successfully got through the novice phase of our training (kyu grades) it's time to forget about the belts and just get on with it' . When anyone tells me they are 'not interested' in gradings or belts I always say 'Fine, no problem, get yourself a black belt and you can forget all about it'.

In essence, it is the black belt that is supposed to represent 'no belt', not the white one and having an external symbol of being a higher grade, kind of goes against this ethos.

Gavin Mulholland wrote:

In essence, it is the black belt that is supposed to represent 'no belt', not the white one and having an external symbol of being a higher grade, kind of goes against this ethos.

I like this explanation.

Very well put.

Gavin Mulholland wrote:

In essence, it is the black belt that is supposed to represent 'no belt', not the white one and having an external symbol of being a higher grade, kind of goes against this ethos.

I agree with this too.

Excellent

Some very good reasons for not having bars here. Especially Gavin's last statement

Me? I just like being a "stealth" yudansha. Although its getting harder as I get more gray "bars" in my hair

As for embroidery color, never heard of a rank color. Someone probably made it up recently.

I try to not even answer the question " what level balck belt are you?" I just tell people I've been training for XX years. If they push hard, it means they are rank conscious and probably will be somewhat stuck up about their rank.

Want to see somenone else with that attitude? Read this article
http://www.usadojo.com/articles/robert-hunt/masanobu-gray.html

Then ask Iain about meeting this same individual at the annual BBQ he posted about earlier this year.

As far as I am aware, the dan bars concept was originally a Korean invention although it did find its way into the karate world via the kyokushinkai (whether this has anything to do with their founder being a Korean Japanese I am not sure) and has since spread from there. In Japan it is almost unheard of outside of karate and more modern systems that copy it though.

In Okinawan styles you are very unlikely to find dan bars too. It is perhaps telling that the Japanese website of Okinawa's premiere karate equipmment manufactuirer Shureido does not even offer the service (Although they will do them if you enquire and make a special order via email).

We must of course bear in mind that a similar idea (different belts for more senior dan grades) was actually in the belt system from the start with the red and white kouhaku obi seen in judo. We are of course free to argue the merits of such a system but it cannot be said that it is not part of the tradition, seeing as Kano Jigoro put them in when he invented that tradition. Dispite the lofty goal of moving on to internal motivations, the culture and society of Japan is very much hung up on status and heirarchy so it is not really surprising that this kind of system would be created.

From my own perspective I do not wear dan bars and it is generally not done in our dojo although Individuals are free to adorn their black belts however they wish. Funnily enough the majority choose to wear a completely plain black belt. I have my name on one end in Japanese and the style and organisation name on the other (Dentokan Shorin ryu) and do not think that is too over the top. 

Can't say I have ever encountered embroidery colour symbolising rank or anything but if you like to do it that way then more power to you. I have seen different arts tending to favour certian colours though, with many aikidoka sporting white embroidered belts while a lot of shorinji kempo practitioners (kenshi I believe they like to be called) go for red. The overwhelmingly most common colour is without doubt the yellowy golden brown.

I've gone back to a plain black belt.

As I write my kids are deciding who prefers my Kyokushin (4 gold stripe) belt or my Enshin (4 red stripe) belt. 

Says it all.

Gary

Anyone wear Hakama? Anyone have embroidery on theirs?

I have never heard that the color of embroidery on an obi signified any rank.

I think that each style should be free to display their rank as their headmaster sees fit.  It is no one else's business.

However, I do think the practice of embroidered kyu obi to be a bit pretentious.

Tau wrote:

Anyone wear Hakama? Anyone have embroidery on theirs?

Yes and no.

Gary Chamberlain wrote:

I've gone back to a plain black belt.

As I write my kids are deciding who prefers my Kyokushin (4 gold stripe) belt or my Enshin (4 red stripe) belt. 

Gary

Get 1 with Kyokushin on 1 side and Enshin on the other!!!

OSU!!!

Let me be honest here ...

It's no wonder many in the Combat/Self Protection 'industry' think karate-ka are losing the plot.  I never thought I'd see concern over embroidery on a serious MA forum.

A gi is just a pair of overalls and a belt is just a recognition of experience and graft.  Dan grade stripe colours and embroidery are just peripheral things that make no difference.  Unless they are regularly covered in sweat they mean even less.

Gary

Gary Chamberlain wrote:

A gi is just a pair of overalls and a belt is just a recognition of experience and graft.  Dan grade stripe colours and embroidery are just peripheral things that make no difference.  Unless they are regularly covered in sweat they mean even less.

You do have a way of getting to the heart of the matter Gary!

I have a host of different belts (many of them gifts) including totally plain, some without dan bars, some with, even one of the red and white block ones. I never really give that much thought to which one I wear. The one that is worn most often has my name in English, my group in Japanese, and 6 dan bars in red. I wear that one the most often because it is the softest and hence most comfortable. It's greater symbolism is not something I think about, but there has been some great posts in this thread that has got me thinking! However, I think everyone would agree that whatever view you take, a belt is just a belt.

All the best,

Iain

Tau wrote:

Anyone wear Hakama? Anyone have embroidery on theirs?

Wore a hakama for Iaido and only my name in small print on the back

The standard in my school is the name of the school embroidered on one end of the belt with dan bars and and a numerical ranking below the bars. The numerical ranking is something that my instructor picked up from his instructor and is largely to show how long the student has been with the school, but is also a tool by which to quickly recognize where the blackbelts fall in the ranking. As far as the color goes, we're given the option to select our own. I have used the same color for of my dan level tests. However, all we are not forbidden from wearing a plan blackbelt. The embroidered belts are just considered more formal.

I disagree with the notion that the dan bars are improper. Just as color belts earn their new shade, blackbelts earn their bar. Now (hopefully) those bars take much more time and effort to earn. I think we can all agree that there is a level of comprehension that increases when looking at shodans, nidans, sandans, ect. To a degree a blackbelt is a blackbelt, but the way the dan ranks were explained to me, and how I see them now, is that shodan is just the beginning. Once you cross that line from the color ranks to the dan ranks, it's like starting over. You now have this base to start developing true technique and that technique comes further forward as you ascend through the dan ranks (for those of us that continue to train past shodan).

The first part of my response is that in my discipline we do have coloured embroidery and it is significant. We have our names in katakana at one end and 'Washinkai' at the other. Dans 1 & 2 wear bronze, 3rd wears red and 4th and above wear silver.

I had no idea that opinions were so varied or so strong on the matter. In the context of a broader discussion I would say that there is no right or wrong answer to the question of embroidery. I read in Patrick McCarthy's interpretation of the "Bubishi" that part of the reason that Okinawa-te had difficulty gaining recognition and acceptance in wider Japan was because it was seen as undisciplined, a perception not helped by the lack of any kind of uniform. It was actually when Karate came to Japan that the gi and obi tradition began. So for my way of thinking it depends on whether you see yourself as an Okinawan style Karate-ka or a Japanese style Karate-ka. If you think yourself more Okinawan then the belt and it's decorations are completely irrelevant. If you think yourself more Japanese then given the strict hierarchical nature of Japanese education systems the displaying of dan bars makes complete sense (even if they are not originally a Japanese concept.)

If I had to nail down my own opinion, so long as your obi adheres to the guidance of your discipline and of your sensei then do whatever you want. Bear in mind though that if your going to have lots of gold embroidery and show off your dan bars you're going to look a bit of a gimp when the guy wearing a plain black belt wipes the floor with you!

I first came across bars on belts in Kyokushinkai many years ago. When it was still all under one world umbrella I was told that you were given a new black belt (from Japan) as part of your grading fee each time you graded up, I don't know if that is still the case now there have been splits in the organisations.

At the time I was interested in this as I have never thought of wanting to change my belt. I feel that I worked damn hard to obtain it (and try to continue to work to be worthy of it) and each time I look at it and put it on it reminds me of that. I have Shotokan in Japanese on one side and my name in English on the other, this was the vogue when I had it and now in hindsite I would prefer it to be in Japanese. I thought at the time it might deter some opportunist from stealing it from the University changing rooms if it had my name on it! Despite this, it's still my belt and I hope to wear it throughout my training life.

I had no idea that the colour of embroidery could have any significance other than aesthetics, it certainly has never been mentioned in any of the associations I have trained with. I recently got my son on passing his black belt a red embroidered belt as this colour has become more popular than gold. I'll have to tell him he just out-graded me! The way time flys this will probably be a reality soon!

mine is with a red writting on it saying KWON.

ups :-)