Bunkai and weapons

Hi Barry, here is one video showing an idea regarding Bunkai and Naihanch (Tekki Shodan)

NAIHANCHI BO KATA: this video shows the first few moves and the very last move which would be the double punch etc

I have another video regarding Bunkai and weapons (Tonfa, Sai etc) but for some reason it wont let me upload, you can follow the link below to view: Title: weapons Jo staff

I hope they maybe of interest and of some use.

Kind regards,

Jason

Thanks Jason, that's exactly what I was thinking of and experimenting with. I can see what you're showing with the jo, but I think because of the grip you use on a tonfa (and possibly the sai, although this is potentially a point weapon) they make the transition into kata bunkai more readily. Hand orientation on a jo is different to the kata although upper arm and hand relative position is correct as is the potential for physical threat. I would suggest that the threat comes from the side (as per traditional bunkai) purely for reasons based on the kiba dachi stance.

These applications intrigue me, is it possible that they are lost element to the origin of karate that we don't study in the mainstream because of its lack of relevance to sport/self defence?

Perhaps it's time to start compiling some video/phtographic sequential evidence of this as well? I wonder if anyone else is doing something similar?

Check this link on YouTube, there are five clips on Tonfa which includes kata as well as basic technique. The same guy has multiple clips on a variety of weapons Kata and their use...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILzmQoAkirU&playnext=1&list=PL133B66BA6C3...

Hi Barry, thanks for reply.

I have no doubt that there are Martial Artists out there doing just this, it could very well be a lost element from Karates past or the Martial Arts in general. It is said by past Masters that if one masters a Kata so to speak, one can study and train the same Kata with the use of weapons keeping the movements pretty much the same. So whatever Bunkai you use relating to the Kata it will be the same to a point only with a weapon.

I am slowly putting together a series of weapon demos which will include my own take and full version of the Naihanchi / Tekki Kata above, Pinan Shodan (Heian Nidan) Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan) and a few others. As soon as they are done i will post & share.

Hi Migonz, great video and thanks for posting, Will give some of those ideas a go : )

Kind regards,

Jason

Whilst I applaud people experimenting and putting things together for themselves i think in this area we need to step back - find a decent Kobudo teacher and train Kobudo which has a whole bunch of specific Kobudo kata- for a reason.

There is so much missing IMO re the kobudo shown, granted physical commonality is present and hitting someone with a stick will hurt.

Jason, could I ask who your Kobudo teacher was or is? I don't know much about the subject outside of our Ryu and am genuinley interested.

Hi Shoshinkanuk,

ive never had a Kobudo weapons teacher, all my training in weapons have been self taught and all my own ideas.

Kind regards,

Jason

Thanks for the posts guys. The idea we are exploring is the link between kobudo and (in my instance) shotokan katas. We have spent long years working through bunkai for kata, those that we learn from our senseis, the ideas we develop ourselves and potential concepts like this where there appears to be an overlap in arts, exactly as Jason says. Iain has explored the links between judo and karate so there is modern precedent for this type of study.

For instance if we took Mignoz's video and took the tonfa away there are obvious age uki, gedan barai, oi tsuki, uchi uke and uraken uchi to name but a few, consequently the bunkai without the tonfa would be far simpler and I would suggest the attacks would not be carried out with a bo. Although this does not produce a karate kata I recognise, someone may think differently.

I have had some kobudo training but within a karate context from a sensei that teaches primarily karate but also some weapons, indeed the first kata for bo on Mignoz's recommended site is one I have practiced.

Look forward to your replies.

shoshinkanuk wrote:

There is so much missing IMO re the kobudo shown, granted physical commonality is present and hitting someone with a stick will hurt.

Exactly. There are only so many ways that a human body moves. You can put handguns in each fist and perform the katas also but, this does not make you a gunfighter. It will just make you more dangerous.

Just because you can hold a weapon as you go through the movements, it doesn't mean you understand how to use that weapon. I don't think that the unarmed kata we have were ever meant to teach anything about the use of weapons. This is supported by the way that kobudo was traditionally taught. In Okinawa, it was common that weapons were learned from a different master than empty-hand. The two were considered seperate arts and trained as such until fairly recently.

It should be said though that with an understanding of how to properly use the weapon(s) you can find some interesting things in a number of katas. With a thorough understanding of unarmed applications I have no doubt that even more techniques will be apparent.

This still does not teach some of the important principles of kobudo.For example, with weapons the combative distance will vary from what is comfortable in karate. Fighting an unarmed opponent when you are armed, one of your first concerns is to avoid him controlling your weapon(s). Maintaining range is one way to do this. Another important principle is that targets are very different when you are armed. Unless defending another weapon you can generally smash anything that is in range. We have a saying in our kobudo class that sums it up, "Just hit meat."

As for documented bunkai, I have been studying kobudo for over 10 years now and I have not seen anything of any real value. There are a few modern sources that are working on some of the traditional weapons katas but I think the vast majority that practice weapons do so for the practice itself. Practical application is years behind where we are even with karate!

Jason Lester wrote:

Hi Shoshinkanuk,

ive never had a Kobudo weapons teacher, all my training in weapons have been self taught and all my own ideas.

Kind regards,

Jason

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the straight awnser, understood.

Hi Barry,

'Iain has explored the links between judo and karate so there is modern precedent for this type of study.'

Yes understood, but I think Iain has invested heavily in Judo practice to do this- Iain of course will be able to provide the detail.

Putting aside the physical commonalities between using Kobudo weaponry in Karate kata (Which do exsist to a point), the context of Bunkai and the strategieis employed are where the biggest dfferences can be found.

I find the whole idea of using Shotokan kata with kobudo weaponry very strange at best, but thats just me.

Hi Shoshinkanuk, apologies for the short reply earlier, i was pushed for time.

The reason i started exploreing and self teaching was that there were no Karate-Ka Kobudo teachers really in my area, i wanted my weapons training closely linked to Kata and Bunkai and the only way to go about that was to study and self teach.

Regardless of what style one may study, weapons wheather traditional or modern can be trained following and related to a single Kata or many. However, like with Bunkai in Kata it must be combat effective and simple to apply.

The problem with weapons training is we must ask ourselves and be honest, how many times have you been in a real combat situation having used a traditional weapon? or how likely are we to? its fair to say that knowing how to use a weapon/s is better than not to know at all, it makes us that even more confident so to speak.

As for the practical application as Mr Jr Cook pointed out may seem years behind, however if one follows practical Bunkai and explores and uses those practical applications, making them work with Kobudo then your pretty much there. This is of course how much time one has and if its of interest.

Like with our hands/fists and feet etc, weapons are just an exstension of the arm and are just as dangerous. With any combat situation if we should be unlucky to end up so, we want to end it as quickly as possible so when training in weapons we want look and train for the knockout.

Kind regards,

Jason

Hi Jason,

Just my thoughts-

Jason Lester wrote:

Hi Shoshinkanuk, apologies for the short reply earlier, i was pushed for time.

The reason i started exploreing and self teaching was that there were no Karate-Ka Kobudo teachers really in my area, i wanted my weapons training closely linked to Kata and Bunkai and the only way to go about that was to study and self teach.

Understood, but theres a whole bunch of book/dvd resources from good Kobudo people, this IMO would have been a better way for you to go.

Jason Lester wrote:

Regardless of what style one may study, weapons wheather traditional or modern can be trained following and related to a single Kata or many. However, like with Bunkai in Kata it must be combat effective and simple to apply.

Ok we need to ignore modern weapons, and focus on Kobudo. Should be combat effective and simple? Personally I agree, but Kobudo has specific contextual strategies- it is a historic art. Out of context its pretty much nonsense IMO.

Jason Lester wrote:

The problem with weapons training is we must ask ourselves and be honest, how many times have you been in a real combat situation having used a traditional weapon? or how likely are we to? its fair to say that knowing how to use a weapon/s is better than not to know at all, it makes us that even more confident so to speak.

Well never re Kobudo weaponry, but twice with knife and bat, ah and a serious bottle incident once.......................But I train Kobudo as its part of our Ryu's traditon, and we do it with a fully functional mindset. A bit weird really but there you go.

Jason Lester wrote:

As for the practical application as Mr Jr Cook pointed out may seem years behind, however if one follows practical Bunkai and explores and uses those practical applications, making them work with Kobudo then your pretty much there. This is of course how much time one has and if its of interest.

Our Kobudo is not behind our empty hand kata- sure theres holes but also a significant ammount of information surrounding each weapon and its use. We are very lucky re our lineage.

Jason Lester wrote:

Like with our hands/fists and feet etc, weapons are just an exstension of the arm and are just as dangerous. With any combat situation if we should be unlucky to end up so, we want to end it as quickly as possible so when training in weapons we want look and train for the knockout.

Yes I see your point, but do we as an example Bo and Sai are fairly certainly heavily based around Ryukyu law enforcement, that posativly didn't encourage knockout or worse. And weapons are significantly more dangerous than empty hands IMO.

As a point to make one of the entry level ideas and techniques of Bo and Sai work is to smash the wrist of the opponent so they are unable to effectivly use their weapon, not knock them out- which if attempted with a weapon could simply kill them or cause perm serious damage.

Not sure I have much more to add, but if you let me know your georaphic location If I could reccomend a decent Kobudo person I would be pleased to.

I have some questions.

The kata are a recording of unarmed technique. The bunkai were modified to make the kata accessible to children and the Japanese (I'm simplifying) but all kata that I've seen seem to take misinterpreted Karate as their basis. E.G. "downward block" is actually a downward block. Is this fair?

Did the use of the Kobudo overlap with the creation of the kata or are they of different generations?

Did Funakoshi, Itosu, Kushanku, Matsumura and so on pradtice kobudo?

I'm open minded but as it stands I see the practice of Kobudo fitting very much into the circle of "art" in the context diagram. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Tau, 

The kobudo kata serve the same purpose as karate kata, to record selected combat techniques. There is probably some of the same misinformation surrounding kobudo but it was never widely marketed to the Japanese or to schools. Since this step was skipped we miss out on having a great deal of incorrect explanations for bunkai.

I do not know specifics about what if any kobudo that Funakoshi, etc. might have practiced. I am sure they would have known about it but as I mentioned previously, kobudo and karate were often viewed as seperate activities. It was not uncommon to have a karate master who knew a weapon kata or two.

Today we have little use for traditional Okinawan weapons. I agree that it is more for the art's sake or for fun that kobudo is practiced. To me, part of the art is achieving a better understanding of kobudo. Just as with karate, the only way to do this is to understand the movements for what they are as well as the context in which they belong. Once you look beyond the physical manipulations themselves you have begun to become a practical martial artist. I train practical bunkai for both unarmed and armed okinawan traditions. I know that the likelyhood for using either in a real world scenario is small. Especially with the weapons. 

from Tau-Matsumura and so on practice kobudo?

Just my opinion I would say in relation to Bo, Sai, Kama, Nunchaku and Tonfa I would say no, or it was not passed on.

I would have said Matsumura was more involved with Personal Military weapons, sword, knife perhaps.

Hohan Soken also never mentioned Kobudo in his lineage from Nabe Matsumura (as far as I am aware), with the exception of Hairpins................a clear covert 'Kobudo' weapon of the Peichin class.

The point is pretty much the Seito Matsumura Kobudo lineage, in relation to the 'big 5 kobudo weapons' starts formally with Hohan Soken as far as i am aware. (There may be more going on ith our Bo and Sai work historically).