Dojo V Reality Knife Defence

I've only ever taught one knife defence course other than the regular drills I teach in my normal classes and that was a few years back.  At the moment I won't record knife defence drills for youtube because I believe people will take the drill element out of context and then wonder why it doesn't work for them.

On the course I ran I spent almost two hours delivering a briefing on violent crime in general and knife crime in particular, looking at footage and shots of injuries in addition to discussing statistics, the legal situation, and a number of elements of the psychological and physical dimensions of real violent events.  We then spent time going through the drills I teach my own students in static fashion.  After this all the participants donned body armour and tried to replicate their performance against attacks preceded by aggressive body language and verbal assault, with levels of contact varying according to the age, sex and experience of the participants.  It would be fair to say that not a single person was able to successfully defend themselves against a full intensity attack without sustaining a cut or stab of some kind.  

Now I could look at that course and view it as a complete failure.  In fact one person who posts here was on that course and I'm happy for him to give his views.  But those students came away with a detailed understanding of knife crime, of possible non violent courses of action, and a real appreciation of the difference between doing something with a compliant training partner and what they could do under greater pressure with contact.  I felt then, and still do feel, that the training day was a postive thing in terms of the lessons it taught.

So why did the students fail to defend themselves in the pressurised element?  There are a number of factors here.  One is the lack of familiarity with the drills.  One reason they work for my students is that the movements closely link and overlap with our unarmed responses so as to avoid logjam.  The skills for my students are transferable and while training unarmed responses they are also training armed responses a fair proportion of the time.  That wasn't the case for these students.  The material I was showing was either for attacks they had never seen or experienced before (at closer ranges too) or clashed with material they had already learned.  In the second instance the majority of the students had no or very little experience of attacking another person and making contact with them.  In the third instance a similar number had no or little experience in moving after being subject to a verbal assault and aggressive body language. I believe that if I had only one rather than three of those elements to contend with then the majority of the class would have successfully defended themselves.  That club now owns their own body armour and runs a special weekly 'self defence' class in addition to their own sylabus.  In terms of delivering a short  course I'm not convinced that students successfully defending themselves is a successful outcome.  I would regard students failing to defned themselves but fully understanding why, and adjusting their regular training to compensate, as a more successful outcome.

In Jissen issue 2 I wrote a short piece on developing knife trainng and knife defences in martial arts clubs.  Although the statistics are a little out of date (and in England and Wales knife crime has dropped since then), I still think this is a good starting point if you haven't read it:

http://www.jissenmag.com/backIssues.asp

I occasionally use rubber knives in my simulation days in different ways.  Sometimes I will give a blade to a person and they will role play being a mugger.  What I also occasionally do in multiple event simulations is give a knife to a random person in a simulation (unbeknown to the other participants) and tell them they are carrying it 'for self protection' and they should pull and use it if they feel threatened - this to replicate one of the blade dynamics amongst young people on our streets.  This training dynamic has proved very useful in multiple person scenarios as it has shown how the interference of others can cause normally sound drills to fall apart.  One approach we have picked up that has improved the 'survival rate' in group situations has been to encourage people to shout "knife" as soon as it is spotted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLjgokfmjTA

Good Training session and makes you realise its never 1 on 1 and as its always portrayed in theDojo

Really nice videos - the 2 last ones...

the 2 first are the more common REactive type of work - and the 2 last ones are the one showing you a somewhat staged reality. WHat you need is to practice it slow first and then later incoorporate the technique in stressed situations - without an idea of what tactic is needed its just random and a succes is not higher.

In my oppinion study of body anatomy and biomechanics and putting this knowledge into function through hands on training experience - that should get you somewhere.

but i really don't like knifes.. 

"It would be fair to say that not a single person was able to successfully defend themselves against a full intensity attack without sustaining a cut or stab of some kind.   Now I could look at that course and view it as a complete failure.  In fact one person who posts here was on that course and I'm happy for him to give his views."

I think you mean me so I'll comment. The course was absolutely not a failure. I think everyone on the course went away with a very clear and realistic view on the reality of knife defence (or more accurately knife attack survival). Especially through the contextual lecture at the beginning. For myself it was my first time in full armour and with the scenarios and verbal element so that in itself would have been enough to contend with, without the knives coming out too. :) So some general aclimatisation was happening alongside learning to "defend against a knife". A few more sessions of a similar nature would have helped I feel.

Another factor was the novelty of the techniques. Some of the technques I'd never really done before (I'm thinking the cross wrist grab and control here) so they weren't that well ingrained. I'm sure there were other positions and defensive grips we could have trained that would have suited my particular training background a little more and made my "defence" more successful. I remember we did a striking drill precisely because the positions we ended up in were fairly alien and so fluid counter striking wasn't happening. That's not to criticise the drills, techniques or tactics at all but merely to highlight how familiarity helps breed competance. For example if we had touched on an arm wrap control type position from the inside (not sure if you'd advocate that or not jwt) it would have been much closer to the thai style type clinching I'm used to and I think more effective counter striking would have occcured (albeit from a less effective defensive or controlling position that what you were advocating on the day).

PASmith wrote:

"It would be fair to say that not a single person was able to successfully defend themselves against a full intensity attack without sustaining a cut or stab of some kind.   Now I could look at that course and view it as a complete failure.  In fact one person who posts here was on that course and I'm happy for him to give his views."

I think you mean me so I'll comment. The course was absolutely not a failure. I think everyone on the course went away with a very clear and realistic view on the reality of knife defence (or more accurately knife attack survival). Especially through the contextual lecture at the beginning. For myself it was my first time in full armour and with the scenarios and verbal element so that in itself would have been enough to contend with, without the knives coming out too. :) So some general aclimatisation was happening alongside learning to "defend against a knife". A few more sessions of a similar nature would have helped I feel.

Hi PASmith

Yes, I was referring to you, though Mitch also posts here from time to time. 

Thanks for your kind words.  Obviously I did feedback forms on the day, but it is interesting to get your perspective 17 months later.  As I mentionned above, Mitch who hosted the day now has several Spartan Training Gear suits for his club and runs an extra class so that students who want this form of experience can have it.

PASmith wrote:

Another factor was the novelty of the techniques. Some of the technques I'd never really done before (I'm thinking the cross wrist grab and control here) so they weren't that well ingrained. I'm sure there were other positions and defensive grips we could have trained that would have suited my particular training background a little more and made my "defence" more successful. I remember we did a striking drill precisely because the positions we ended up in were fairly alien and so fluid counter striking wasn't happening. That's not to criticise the drills, techniques or tactics at all but merely to highlight how familiarity helps breed competance. For example if we had touched on an arm wrap control type position from the inside (not sure if you'd advocate that or not jwt) it would have been much closer to the thai style type clinching I'm used to and I think more effective counter striking would have occcured (albeit from a less effective defensive or controlling position that what you were advocating on the day).

I do also do 'inside' counters, and we did briefly cover one up against the wall, where the outside movement was not available.  We didn't do that one full power for safety reasons, namely that I have been KOed by one of my own students (Robbie who joined us for a curry in Nottingham after the charity seminar we did) by having my (helmeted) head hit against a padded wall as per the drill.  That inside counter is more commonly drilled with our firearm defences (and I stress these defences are only if you are in contact range and certain you are about to be shot/stabbed) since we try and avoid moving in a manner that will point the firearm at another person.  We did cover an inside icepick counter as well as an outside postion icepick counter (depending on the angle of attack) but you might have forgotten that.

One thing I try and do with all my drills, not just the knife drills, is coach a student to safety when they make a mistake.  So rather than say 'you did that wrong, start again' I ask how they gor to where they are, put myself in their position, talk through possible exit strategies, then put them in and get them to do one from the 'failed' position, then coach them through the 'correct' drill again and carry on.

Thanks again.

John Titchen

"you might have forgotten that"

Almost certainly. As I said...it was a fairly novel day in and of itself without trying to remember all the details. :)

I've always thought of knife defence (well any defence really) as being best served by dealing in broad principals that are then manifest in different ways as needed in the situation. So "controlling the knife arm" being a broad aim but how you gain that control is then dependent on how you are attacked, how quickly you "see" it, how well you manage space and range etc etc. So different sorts of control or grip may suit a person more than others. I remember having a hard time with the cross grip control because it put me into a position I'm unused to fighting from. To me that highlights a flaw in myself (and my training) rather than a flaw with what we were drilling or being taught.

PASmith wrote:

"you might have forgotten that"

Almost certainly. As I said...it was a fairly novel day in and of itself without trying to remember all the details. :)

I've always thought of knife defence (well any defence really) as being best served by dealing in broad principals that are then manifest in different ways as needed in the situation. So "controlling the knife arm" being a broad aim but how you gain that control is then dependent on how you are attacked, how quickly you "see" it, how well you manage space and range etc etc. So different sorts of control or grip may suit a person more than others. I remember having a hard time with the cross grip control because it put me into a position I'm unused to fighting from. To me that highlights a flaw in myself (and my training) rather than a flaw with what we were drilling or being taught.

I agree in the main.  The key principles we were looking at were the three Cs - Clear (from the line of attack), Control (the weapon/hand/limb) and (make) Contact.  I took those principles in that form (the three Cs mnemonic) from Blauer Tactical Systems (though Tony in turn probably got them from somewhere else), although they are identical to the tactical principles I learned in Aikido and I'm sure are present in many other arts.  

The cross grip (arm over arm) you referred to came about for a number of reasons which are difficult to explain outside of a class and lots of demonstrations.  We use it for a few other things as well.

The key thing as you say is to practise and drill your approaches under pressure, but more than that the approaches you take should not clash with your unarmed responses.

I'm of the mindset that the student and instructor should fully realize just how dangerous a knife is and to run if possible. On numerous occasions I've asked instructors "does a knife scare you" only to have them answer "no, I have confidence in my skills."  Well, truth be known is the reason they're not scared of a knife is because they've never encountered one outside the dojo. Those are the people to avoid at all costs, along with their videos.

Inside the dojo everything works. Pressure points, chi, knife and gun disarms but then the good guys never get killed in the westerns either, maybe shot in the arm, but not killed. Most of the knife drills (like the one in the video) are merely extensions of someone's empty-handed, step-punch-kick, training.  There's no fluidity, no real intent, no real threat and an over all tendency to preserve the style's integrity instead of addressing the threat and how you will react to it.  Also, there's a built in delusion that the karate-ka can easily disarm the attacker without sustaining injury because they study karate, kung-fu, Tae-Kwon Do, etc, etc.  Such beliefs and mindsets are a recipe for disaster. For instance not long ago a young man who had just started karate wanted to demonstrate his gun and knife disarms to me. "Okay, I said" and with the gun I simulated holding a pistol and stood 8 feet away, which is short range for a pistol, but long range for empty hand. "Come closer" he said, "no way" I answered then said "bang, your dead."   With the knife it was about the same thing, he wanted me to line up all formal, but instead I grabbed his shirt and executed a series of underhanded thrusts to his stomach, groin and lower back. Needless to say he was a bit upset because I didn't play by the rules, but that's my point.  Someone armed with a knife isn't going to play by the dojo's rules, they'll invent their own as things progress. That's why live training is so important, along with stressing the fact that they've got a weapon and you don't and you've suddenly ended up on the bottom of the food chain.

Mike

I suppose this is where research into the event no matter how much you don't want it to happen.

Here's a good book from what I've read, bit expensive though

http://www.amazon.com/Put-Down-Take-Out-Techniques/dp/0873644840

I'm of the mindset that the student and instructor should fully realize just how dangerous a knife is and to run if possible.

That was one thing John's contextual lecture at the start of his seminar really got across. In particular there was a CCTV clip of two guys being attacked by three. One of the two was killed with a knife. But what surprised us watching it was that it wasn't the guy that was getting pounded on and clearly in a violent encounter...it was his mate off to the right of the footage that had been stabbed just once through the heart as he tried to escape. Very shocking because I for one wasn't even watching that encounter because it was very quick and looked uneventful compared to the swinging fists used on the other guy.

In the case of much knife defense, I think we can safely say that alot of what is out there is definitely NOT sensible.

A big thing is just like with in martial arts generally, people have a tendency to shop around for a series of "moves" that work instead of trying to figure out some solid principles of edged weapon stuff...so I always try to listen to anyone who approaches it more from a framework of strategy and principles and understanding the capabilities of the weapon.

Last Tuesday our instructor decided to do some knife defences. Rubber ones... He started off with trying side snap and then crescent kick to knock knife away. Personally I did not think it wise but had a go. Not surprisingly he and us were rubbish! We faired better using hand techniques which we could deliver faster and more accurately. However in the ensuing chaos the lesson for me was clear. Run away and don't try to be chuck Norris. Ha ha.