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Dash3
Dash3's picture
Essential grounds skill

Context: self-defense, not sport or play. Karate practitioner who wants to get up to strike or get away.

What are the essential grounds skills a karateka should have?

Thus far, I have identified: sprawl, breakfall, sweep while mounted, sweep while attacker is in guard, choke while attacker in guard, break and stand up from guard, get up while not exposing yourself, and restricted movement striking.

Got more? Take issue with anything listed?

Tau
Tau's picture

I actually put together a mini "syllabus" of sorts for a friend. He came to me because he identified one of his weaknesses as being groundwork.

I think you're on the right lines.

Keeping everything within a broader context of pragmatism (ie start with AAE and so on)

1. Defence against being taken to the ground

2. Defence whilst on the ground against standing attacker(s) with a view to escape

3. Grappling on the ground with a view to escape

You can then break each of these down.

The combative stand up is an integral part of my classes right from day one. There are several skills that you can aquire from it

Then you have ant-grappling such as sprawling, as you describe

Then your ground grappling. This can be an art in itself but essentially it's all about achieving escape from the various positions, accepting that there can be several other parties involved

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Good topic and a good list! I think you’ve got all the core ones.

We also need to practise escaping from the top i.e. the enemy holding us down from underneath so we can’t stand up. Rarely practiced in sport grappling because you are winning when on top, but a must for self-protection due to the risk of third parties. I have a video filmed on that which I’ll be sharing soon.

We also need environmental practise i.e. factoring in hard floors, obstacles, walls, things that can be used as improvised weapons, etc.

Live drills that include third parties and weapons would also seem to be important.

The obvious one is striking from the various positions on the floor too, as well as negating strikes from those positions.

As I say, I have some videos on these topics coming soon! All filmed, I just need to edit them up.

All the best,

Iain

Dash3
Dash3's picture

I want to keep this discussion going, so:

Anyone have preferred techniques/drills they'd care to share to satisfy the above-mentioned skills?

Will keep an eye out for Iain's videos - shouldn't be long, right? Not like you've got a sprog on the way and a million other things to do, yeah?

Tau
Tau's picture

I have several, but I'll start with a fun one.

Bulldogs. Remember the game? One person is "on" and the others run from one end of the training hall / playground to the other. When they're tagged they're "on" too and so it gets harder to evade being tagged. Now change the tag to a takedown or throw. One person is "on" and the rest have to move around. The "on" person has to get one other player to the ground but of course they're allowed to fight back. Once one is caught they're allowed to team up. Eventually the person or persons best at evasion and fighting off attempts to throw them will be up against everyone else.

I use this primarily for when my classes have older or higher graded juniors but I've used with adults a couple of times.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Dash3 wrote:
Will keep an eye out for Iain's videos - shouldn't be long, right? Not like you've got a sprog on the way and a million other things to do, yeah?

I’ll be sure to find the time :-) I’ve got one more to share on Chinte, and then the next two will be “getting up from the floor” (them standing you down) and “escaping from the top” (person underneath is holding you and stopping you getting up). So they should be out in the next couple of weeks. I hope you find them useful.

All the best,

Iain

Tau
Tau's picture

Start sat down with one oppoent at some distance. They run towards you and you have to stand up ready to defend yourself before they reach you. Gradually reduce the distance to force faster standing.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Dash3 wrote:
Will keep an eye out for Iain's videos - shouldn't be long, right? Not like you've got a sprog on the way and a million other things to do, yeah?

Here is a sneak preview of the escaping from the top video :-) More to follow.

All the best,

Iain

Dash3
Dash3's picture

Good stuff as always! Have to get to a residential as you always seem to be covering the exact topics about which I am interested at the time...

Dash3
Dash3's picture

Tau, forgive me; I did not mean to ignore your contributions. You BOTH have been very helpful!

Tau
Tau's picture

Come to a residential. Great friendship, great training. Sharing of ideas. And always a possibility of cheesecake.

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

My super basic version:

Basic positional grappling (guard, mount, side control, how to obtain and get out of them- from a self defense perspective rather than sport), how to get up from the ground and avoid getting kicked/punched while you're there. Nothin' fancy I don't think. Things like how to use the gaurd as an "oh )(&& response then kick away and stand up..rathert han actively trying to grapple someone. Using your legs to create space to stand up...

Tim Cartmell has a video called "ground proofing" that I thought was a really  good basic starting point for  a "ground" syllabus in Karate.

Great video as usual Iain!

Dash3
Dash3's picture

Zach Zinn wrote:

Tim Cartmell has a video called "ground proofing" that I thought was a really  good basic starting point for  a "ground" syllabus in Karate.

Just looked Cartmell up and watched the Ground Proofing trailer on YouTube. Looks like good stuff; I'll try to pick up a copy and thanks for the recommendation!

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Zach Zinn wrote:
Tim Cartmell has a video called "ground proofing" that I thought was a really good basic starting point for  a "ground" syllabus in Karate.

I’ve embedded the preview here:

Zach Zinn wrote:
Great video as usual Iain!

Thank you!

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Here’s one on the basics of getting up from the floor if knocked down.

All the best,

Iain

sarflondonboydo...
sarflondonboydonewell's picture

Some interesting comments and clips I have always trained ( and one can do them as a warm up drill) Sprawl (without a doubt), bridging, learning to use your feet as hands, covering up and shrimping,  you face down and an attacker on your back punching you in the back of the head(normally in a gang/group attack where you have been sort of surrounded and the one behind pushes you  on the back onto the floor). I think those I have outlined will get you out of the vast majority situations on the floor, as some drunken yob tried to get on top of you.

Zach Zinn
Zach Zinn's picture

Iain, great video.That's pretty similar to the stuff I learned from the Ground Proofing stuff, and from my Jujutsu as well, it's pretty surprising that often in classes that involve grappling you'll see stuff like bucking and rolling, passing guard and whatnot, but this - getting kicked or hit on the ground can get skipped over entirely. Judging from the number ofaltercations you see that involve this scenario..it's always seemed to me like it's worth prioritizing as far as "groundwork" for self-defense goes.

BTW looking forward to learning from you in Nov., glad you are coming back to the PNW again!

Dash3
Dash3's picture

On a different angle, what have you seen taught (in person or on Internet) as self defense ground work that would actually be disastrous? (Aside from going for submissions which would get you boot-stomped by the crowd, I mean).

mike23
mike23's picture

Well, we never want to go to the ground and if we find ourselves on the ground it's best to fight your way back up however your question involves "ground work as self defense" and with that I see people teaching- actually re-engineering-their sport jiu-jitsu back into a self-defense applications that leave the head exposed. There are times to keep the head away and other times to hide it. The second thing is loosing mobility by staying in one position and not trying to improve the position your in. It's ok to attempt a quick finish if it presents itself from the guard but don't STAY in guard when it might be simple and flowing to just sweep them over. 

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Thank you! I’m pleased you like the video.

Zach Zinn wrote:
it's pretty surprising that often in classes that involve grappling you'll see stuff like bucking and rolling, passing guard and whatnot, but this - getting kicked or hit on the ground can get skipped over entirely. Judging from the number of altercations you see that involve this scenario, it’s always seemed to me like it's worth prioritizing as far as "groundwork" for self-defense goes.

I think it’s that context thing again i.e. thinking that a consensual one-on-one fight is largely the same as non-consensual criminal violence. Or failing to appreciate the huge difference a change in context can make due to the success of a given methods within a given context i.e. “I know this works, because it always works in the dojo”.  

In a consensual one-on-one fight, it is common for the thrower to join the thrown on the ground to capitalise on the advantage and win the fight. In non-consensual criminal violence – where kicking from an upright position is the simplest way to cause damage; and where proving who is the best fighter is not the objective –  the standing person joining the other on the ground is rare (falling over together being a different issue). The “boot party” is way more likely and should be focussed on for self-protection.

Zach Zinn wrote:
BTW looking forward to learning from you in Nov., glad you are coming back to the PNW again!

Me too! See you in a few months :-)

All the best,

Iain

Dash3
Dash3's picture

Tim Cartmell's DVD was delivered today - hope to review it this weekend (if running around after progeny allows any me time) and advise if anything useful for this topic or the ground skills kata...

-Dale