heian sandan bunkai

I was taught to make all escapes at the point you are grabbed. In this instance when the nukite wrist is grabbed your other hand immediately traps the opponents hand. Then perform the twist movement in the kata and you have your own wrist lock.

The other idea I have is against a left foot forward opponent:: trap the leading left arm at the elbow with the pressing block and shoot the nukite under the arm pit. Make the twist to gyaku zenkutsudachi with a bit more of a loop of the arm and capture the opponents left shoulder (might work better if you step to the side instead of leaning back). Then the spin should throw him over your leg.

No idea if this would work, but the first one is sound.

The way I interpret the kata, I don't believe that the spinning hammerfist comes off of the nukite movement at all. I don't try to link the two together. Rather I see these both as options from a base position. You could do the nukite, or the spin, or the step through punch, or the double block from the base position introduced earlier in the kata. All these options are answers to your opponent’s pressure and resistance within the first position (sequence) in the kata. Don't worry about it, just train them separately. 

I don't do that kata, but I think I get what you are talking about.

It may be technically true that with some manuevring your opponent can make this technique "not work", but that doesn't make it invalid I don't think.

I figure there are  maybe two main things to consider:

How hard or easy is it for your opponent to do this kind of manuevering when you add the 'messyness' of real life into the mix (as much as is possible with safety considerations)?

Are there many escape techniques that work after a lock has been secured? Most of the time, there is very little that will work perfectly once the lock is on.

I train with some Jujutsu guys that do alot of this kind of locking, sometimes it's good food for thought in terms of auditing how you escape locks and such, and how to be aware of certain possibilities. However sometimes I think they put a little too much faith in their ability to apply these precision movements on a moving, hostile target. I'd venture that is you asked them they'd say I underestimate their effectiveness..possibly the truth is somehwere in the middle.

That is not to say that this person wasn't making a good point..just to say that this escape (if it's the one i'm thinking of) is not invalid just because they were able to do a little magic and make your shoulder hurt with it.

My experience of holding or locking up someone who doesn't wan't to be controled - is it is very difficult to achieve, situation dependant - and size and weight have huge impact, over technique in this area, often.

Even if you hit them first, if you knock them half out the issue is they will recover and then try to escape if your locking them up and that is challanging IME.

Good reference for this is police (want to restrain) - and criminals (don't wan't to be held) theres loads of footage of police really struggling and often requiring other officers to assist. (granted they arn't often hitting with full force to set up).

I have found that if one adopts a REALLY aggresive attitude in grappling things can be improved in terms of it's effectivness.

Agreed, the general rule is that it takes at least 4 to 6 people to restrain someone who doesn't want to be held.

That being said, pinning someone is a very different ball game from grabbing a wrist in order to open them for a hit or drag them off balance.

Hi All, 

With regards to the movement, if you missed the opportunately to twist and hit so your arm has been pushed up your back, then the bunkai is now redundent. The move cannot relate anymore, so i can understand what the shorinji instructor is saying. As an alternative try leaning forward (deep bow)to release some of the pressure so you can twist (other way to the bunkai) and straighten your arm.

Hope this helps,

Neil

Thanks guys, definite food for thought - Neil by leaning forwad would you not be putting yourself in danger of a take-down to the front?

DaveB and Shoshinkanuk I hear what you say but then you could make the inference that the defence against this type of lock is slightly redundant. Firstly, the most likely people to be using this lock would be law enforcement for restraining purposes (and as an upstanding citizen I shouldn't be in the situation in the first place ) and secondly a criminal wouldn't really have need for restraining their traget. So the likelyhood of defending against this is dramatically reduced.

Andrew

maybe the Bunkai was for the law men to understand what the criminals might do to get away more than the other way around?

The defence to the defence - very nice exercise to use in a drill......I like it!

DaveB wrote:

Agreed, the general rule is that it takes at least 4 to 6 people to restrain someone who doesn't want to be held.

Depends how you do it, I've managed on my own.

Dave Moore wrote:

Depends how you do it, I've managed on my own.

So have I, but not against someone who was a physical equal or who had slipped all the normal mental limitations. Some of your more dangerous criminals or mental patients or even ordinary folk with a bit of an issue can get to a place of neither caring about  nor feeling pain (theirs or yours) and they seem super strong too.

I agree that using this (or any) kata sequence as an escape from a lock already in place is somewhat redundant. As I mentioned all escapes and reversals should be effected the moment your opponent grabs you; anything after that is a wrestling match.

Just as a note on this subject I have found that the knowledge and skill gained applying locks from kata can and does materialise in more 'wrestling' situations - just often not as the practiced - a clear case of using the principles gained rather than specific scenarios.

Im always amazed when things are 'live' how little we actually can pull off cleanly.