Kali techniques and Karate

I haven't watched the video but I can comment on the relationships between Filipino Martial Arts and Bunkai that I have so far observed. I've been studying Warriors Eskrima seriously since January but have dabbled a little over the past few years.

First one of the two person drills that Iain teaches in Heian Godan, the one in which you switch from the "x-block" into a hand pass / hikite. That's instantly recognisable to any Eskrimador as Hubad Lubad. 

I recently spent a session just learning Sinawali and variations of it. It is usually performed with two sticks but one of the variations that we practiced was unarmed. It looked exactly like the Heian Nidan shuto drill.

This week we were covering chokes including in defence against a knife attack. One of the techniques taught I learned in Jujitsu in 1996 and taught my own grounded variation in Malta in June this year. I see it as one application to the complex backfisting combination in Jion.

What this does is reinforce to me that good techniques will always find themselves into a system although how they are entered into and applied will vary. Same solution to the same problem, with a different cultural backdrop.

Absolutely! The more I research the Filipino systems the more I see in karate. There's a lot of inspiration and ideas to gain from all the Filipino systems, but panantukan seems particularly relevant. I am most definitely sold that it fits into karate very well. Fluid training methods at close quarters using a full range of skills and techniques.

What is there not to like!

You could be forgiven for thinking that karate *should* be practised that way :-)

stephen wrote:

Absolutely! The more I research the Filipino systems the more I see in karate.

Is this because

- Sailers, merchants, monks and so on spread their arts around asia so ideas were passed on. 

- Each culture or art finds the best solution to the problem

- Both

- Other

From my perspective the more Martial Arts I study the more crossover I see. This could recent assimilation of techniques or principles, or it could be a part of the art from 100 years (or more) back.

stephen wrote:

panantukan seems particularly relevant.

Sorry, not being awkward, but define Panantukan from your perspective. In Warriors it's the striking aspect of the greater art. I've recently met someone who studied the Martial Art of Panantukan. I've recently bought a Panantukan dagger. It's the smallest weapon I possess but I've quickly come to respect it as probably the nastiest. It's also made me rethink the concept or defence against weapons and defence against unarmed attack. Increasingly I'm teaching defence that doesn't differenciate.

stephen wrote:

You could be forgiven for thinking that karate *should* be practised that way :-)

Some people already do!

For me Yaw Yan and Mano Mano seem more relevant to Karate and more exclusovely Jissen based Karate as opposed to Goshin based Karate

I´ve seen some strong similarities between Karate and Kali/Escrima. But what about the other eastern (or western) martial arts. I´ve seen some jiu-jitsu techniques, which look like Karate techniques but not as much as seen in the video above. And what about the chinese Kung-Fu-styles? I´ve heard that many Karatekas studied in China. (I hope my question isn`t a little bit to off-topic)

Interestingly, a friend of mine showed me this clip on Abir, a Jewish martial art.  It looks like aikido/kung fu (Im no expert in either, so Its just a guess).  I had never heard of it till this weekend.  Please let me know what you all think

Sebastian B. wrote:

what about the other eastern (or western) martial arts. I´ve seen some jiu-jitsu techniques, which look like Karate techniques

I've said and typed this before (so much so that Iain's probably sick of it) but when I first saw Iain's DVDs I thought "this is a Jujitsu guy that thinks he can do Karate." How wrong I was, but my point remains. I teach Jujitsu but have learned Karate and Taekwondo, both to 1st Dan. I have students with Dan grades in both so I'm constantly teaching Jujitsu but referring to where in their kata/patterns they'll have seen the technique or method that I'm teaching. It's all a case of cross-training and sharing methods and also different cultures and people finding the best ways to address the problem. Judo's Tomoe Nage throw is seen in the Egyptian pyramids. Judo's Koshi Guruma is found in kata and, as Iain tells us, is called the "Cross Buttocks Throw" in Cumberland Wrestling.

nielmag wrote:

Interestingly, a friend of mine showed me this clip on Abir, a Jewish martial art.  It looks like aikido/kung fu (Im no expert in either, so Its just a guess).  I had never heard of it till this weekend.  Please let me know what you all think

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=syHyD8aPpkA

The first unarmed technique was Ikkyo into Irimi Nage, as in Aikido.

I also saw an Aikido-style entry into Judo Ippon Seoi Nage variation, specifially what I would call Ippon Seoi Harai

Cross cultural fertilisation cannot be ignored - China to Okinawa to Japan, for example. There's no reason why it cannot work in other directions too, considering Okinawa's geographical location.

From my point of view, regarding panantukan, I have been studying, for example, Dan Inosanto's videos, I could regard it as part of a bigger whole, or as an unarmed close quarter art in its own right.  The unarmed Filipino techniques have "mawashi uke" all over them, and since I incorporate push hands type training into what I do, I can also see value in the flow exercises that Kali/Escrima people do (for an idea of what we call "push hands" have a look on youtube at Nathan Johnson's Kodo Ryu videos).

I think it's all good, certainly having a basis in picking up Western boxing too (karate people need to be aware of boxing techniques, and having a partner who has at least a basic grasp of boxing will help with training).  My beginner group wouldn't look out of place in a kickboxing gym, and from there we transition to "traditional" karate technique, push hands, applications... etc etc. Done right, it  fits together nicely.

The idea of styles begins to diminish, and training becomes "just training". Thanks to the rise of low cost international communications borders between martial arts as well as cultures melt away like desert mirages.

Just for perspective, I don't want to sound too grandiose, my training group currently stands at five people (not including the separate kids class - 10 kids!) I like it that way, it's more about a bunch of people training together than some hierarchical group mentality. I like the informal setting, I'm more of a "let's find a quiet spot down the beach and train" person these days than a stickler for excessive rules and hierarchies (but yes, we do have belts, although we don't consider them to be "ranks" in that there is no seniority in belt colours - having a structure around learning and progression is a positive thing to come out of modern karate).

Perhaps if I had a larger class my approach would change somewhat, but that's not likely to happen any time soon.

I've also seen juji uke gedan or "x block" lower in kali. I'll try to dig out a suitable video clip.

Oh and one more thing before I turn in for the night(!) The palm stick techniques (as demonstrated in other videos in the series  of the one Sebastian posted...) remind me of the times I was interested in the kubotan.

Sebastian B. wrote:

The movements shown are pretty similar to the bunkai of a Shuto Uke. I think Kali is one of the main sources of Karate so if we want to learn something about the original Bunkai we may study Kali.

One thing I think that needs to be kept in mind during discussions like this is that similarity in method does not mean a shared origin. As Tau said, the “cross buttocks throw” / Koshi-Guruma is found in Cumberland wresting, old bare–knuckle boxing, jujutsu, judo, karate, etc, etc. That does not mean that some samurai travelled all the way to Cumbria to teach the throw to the Vikings who settled there. It’s far more likely that the Japanese samurai and the Vikings who brought the forerunner of Cumberland wrestling to this area all found the same methods to be effective.

You’ll find bows and arrows being used for hunting and fighting in almost every culture you can name. It was not a case of one group coming up with the idea and exporting it to the rest of the globe: people came up with the idea independently. The same problem with invariably lead to similar solutions being found. There is no need fort a common origin.

It’s that fact that something works that leads to it being found in many systems. Assuming a shared origin on that basis alone is flawed in my view.

The clip is a good one (thanks for sharing it!) and the motion is what we karateka know as shuto-uke. Being able to control the limbs to open the enemy up for strikes through the use of both hands in an integrated fashion is a skill needed in close-range civilian conflict. It’s therefore not really that surprising that both arts make use of similar methods.

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Sebastian B. wrote:

The movements shown are pretty similar to the bunkai of a Shuto Uke. I think Kali is one of the main sources of Karate so if we want to learn something about the original Bunkai we may study Kali.

One thing I think that needs to be kept in mind during discussions like this is that similarity in method does not mean a shared origin. As Tau said, the “cross buttocks throw” / Koshi-Guruma is found in Cumberland wresting, old bare–knuckle boxing, jujutsu, judo, karate, etc, etc. That does not mean that some samurai travelled all the way to Cumbria to teach the throw to the Vikings who settled there. It’s far more likely that the Japanese samurai and the Vikings who brought the forerunner of Cumberland wrestling to this area all found the same methods to be effective.

You’ll find bows and arrows being used for hunting and fighting in almost every culture you can name. It was not a case of one group coming up with the idea and exporting it to the rest of the globe: people came up with the idea independently. The same problem with invariably lead to similar solutions being found. There is no need fort a common origin.

It’s that fact that something works that leads to it being found in many systems. Assuming a shared origin on that basis alone is flawed in my view.

The clip is a good one (thanks for sharing it!) and the motion is what we karateka know as shuto-uke. Being able to control the limbs to open the enemy up for strikes through the use of both hands in an integrated fashion is a skill needed in close-range civilian conflict. It’s therefore not really that surprising that both arts make use of similar methods.

All the best,

Iain

QFT! 

Sebastian B. wrote:

Hi all !
I'm new in this forum and I hope that i won´t break to many rules right at the start

I´ve just found a clip at Youtube where you can see a master of Kali, who is showing some basic techniques:

The movements shown are pretty similar to the bunkai of a Shuto Uke. I think Kali is one of the main sources of Karate so if we want to learn something about the original Bunkai we may study Kali. Has anybody else found some exampels for these theses? Maybe a "Kali application" for Uchi or Soto Uke?

Certainly during the 17th century a lot of Christian Samurai and Japanese fled Japan and ended up in the Philippines, so there may have been some influence from there.
But more likely it is the influence that Japanese (and other cultures) styles post WW2 have had on FMA that has resulted in the familiarity of kali techniques to karate.

Kali in its current form is a very modern eclectic combat form, far removed from its original combat effective warrior techniques.