Kanku Sho 2nd Jump

One thing I explore for the floor drops in this and the dai version is a sprawl defence against the rugby tackle take down attempt. The low shuto springing up from the floor resolves the sprawl into a nasty neck crank too.

Craig:

This is what I consider to be the closest 'real' application I have ever come across...

Great spot Mike - thanks for posting.  When in application, the jump is almost certainly the source of the description of 'scissor-like' leg manoevres in Kusanku kata.   Even the Shuto turn incorporates a subtle twist of the hips which could infer a scissoring motion.  

Its worth noting too that the leaning posture can indicate tackle/takedown applications as well as their counters - one need only watch some good Harimau silat to see entire systems of work in which the 'leaning posture' is extrapolated into a broad range of movement and application.

A good way to see this:

A good spot Mike, but I feel that it might be an overly literal intepretation of the movement...Would anybody seriously consider doing it in a non-sporting situation?

I suspect the jump has been added to create dramatic form and over exaggerate the original intended movement.

It could be something like ...trap-step behind opponent, sweep front leg - grab collar and takedown from behind? An over dramatic example by Asai is shown here (2.50 ish). What i was thinking of would have slightly less "air time" :) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eKqto-MoRs

Ger, glad you liked, Thomas, no argument, really...  

I once heard this move was 'Matsumura ducking under the Sho King's palanquin'. (Seriously, it could be that.) That's a the ultimate problem with 'interpretive' methods of training-- you just don't know unless you develop something that **YOU** know from it.

As I was just noting in one of the other threads, personally I think interpretation comes down to whether you see kata as a literal or figurative exercise.  (see the 'movement variance' thread).  Personally, my own belief is that solo training methods (theoretically including kata/ forms, to the degree that they are part of a training regime) SHOULD lean toward the 'literal' to best maximize its uniqueness (as a training drill) and its overall value as a solo training exercise.  So, when I look for 'applications', personally I tend to look for things that  mechanically resemble the motions in forms as closely as possible.  Well, actually  that's rather 'the wrong-way round' again, meaning:  it goes more that when I SEE applications of 'real' fighting moves, I connect them back to the movements of inherited forms that I know.  Tons of other examples abound...  a tai otoshi in judo is almost a carbon copy of the mechanics of the "turning middle block" at the end of passai... I just broke a clinch this week with a 'double hook punch' simply while goofing around that totally replicated the movements of Gojushiho.  But personally, the inmportant thing for me to note is that I 'discover' these movements through trainihng and play, AND THEN connect them 'back' to the kata.  Personally, I have kind of given up on the deliberate search for 'the 'meaning' behind he moves'.

Are these moves the 'original'  applications?  I highly doubt it.  They are coincidences.  (literally 'COINCIDE-ness-es').

As to the workable application of the flying arm bar, I have seen it win in high level tournaments and I have seen it win pro MMA fights.  So, I see it as being just as street effective as a jab or a cross taking from (equally sporting) boxing.  Meaning:  in the right context, at the right time, it works.  In a three on one battle behind a dumpster, its the wrong move.

Here's on you might like better,  basically a reverse floating drop off a kick entry.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nlq6sxaiSI (see 0:33).  (prersonally, this was the 'best' I had seen before I made the rolling armbar connection... The problem I have with this one is that, like many typical karate bunkai, its taken off a totally 'static' wrist grab utterly devoid of dynamic energy... No pushing, no pulling, no punching.  But, like a lot of kata, the argument can be made that this is simply an 'illustration' to be explored in later down the road live comabtive facsimiles... if you look at a judo form in application, it doesn't look terribly 'combative' either.

miket wrote:

Personally, my own belief is that solo training methods (theoretically including kata/ forms, to the degree that they are part of a training regime) SHOULD lean toward the 'literal' to best maximize its uniqueness (as a training drill) and its overall value as a solo training exercise.  So, when I look for 'applications', personally I tend to look for things that  mechanically resemble the motions in forms as closely as possible. 

I agree in principle with this, but the problem I have is that I am quite convinced (especially in the case of Shotokan) that the Kata form has become so over stylised it is quite difficult to stay true to the form and still achieve an effective technique.

I spend  a lot of time trying to understand the transition between techniques rather than the techniques themselves and what I find is that there are many many examples of discrete sequences in different katas that on the surface look like they are completely different, but in actual fact are just different styalised versions of the same type of application.

...in my interpretation anyway.. :-)

miket wrote:

Tons of other examples abound... a tai otoshi in judo is almost a carbon copy of the mechanics of the "turning middle block" at the end of passai... I just broke a clinch this week with a 'double hook punch' simply while goofing around that totally replicated the movements of Gojushiho.

For the  "double punch with turn and sweeping block" at the end of Bassai, I prefer the "breaking of a headlock" interpretation this chap demonstrates in Rohai

 .. 3.42 in the video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2040546215650161284#

.. I taught the application to a friend/student who then successfully used it in real situation..to which I got quite a degree of secret pleasure.

...And I am a very strong believer in goofing around and play, something that I do in all aspects of my life, much to my wife's irritation.

Hi All,

Those of us how have been here a while may recall that two years ago we discussed this on the old forum (link below). This was what I posted on my preferred application for that jump in question:

Iain Abernethy wrote:

I hope this is clear enough as text alone sometimes makes it hard to get these things across: You have had your foot captured [i.e. caught kick] and are hence standing on one leg. Knowing you are going to the floor, in desperation you twist away from the enemy and put your hands on the floor. You can then use your free leg to kick backwards; while simultaneously trying to pull your trapped leg out. Because the enemy’s hands are occupied (i.e. holding your leg) a solid kick to the torso or groin may result in them being knocked off your leg, or letting go of your leg in other to protect themselves from the kick. Either way you get free. If this technique of desperation is performed solo (i.e. without someone holding the trapped leg up) it will look exactly like the spinning leap in the kata. Well, maybe not as graceful or stylised, but all aspects of the motion are there.

Link to archived forum: http://www.iainabernethy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000230#000009

If you do the motion with as partner, and then try to recreate it on your own, the lean, the jump, the twist, the landing etc are all present. It just looks a little different because we don’t have the enemy holding us up by one foot. I hope that’s of some use and relatively clear? Could be one to put on an online video when I get back to those?

All the best,

Iain

This kata as practised by other styles (e.g. Shito ryu's kosokun sho) has neither the "lean" nor the spinning jump in it. Whatever these movements might have meant they were apparently much less acrobatic than the Shotokan kata seems to imply: so probably no flying armbars and no last ditch attempts to free a foot.

Harry Mord wrote:

This kata as practised by other styles (e.g. Shito ryu's kosokun sho) has neither the "lean" nor the spinning jump in it. Whatever these movements might have meant they were apparently much less acrobatic than the Shotokan kata seems to imply: so probably no flying armbars and no last ditch attempts to free a foot.

A very important point I think; although my take on it leads me in a different direction. Here is a video of the Shito-Ryu version for comparison:

It’s certainly true that the modern Shotokan version performs the motion more “dynamically” than in the Shito-Ryu version. However, essentially the motion is still there (1:03ish on the video). I see all the key elements present in both versions: a leg in the air (the captured one), a turn, a drop and kick (the switch of legs as the hands touch the floor), etc (#). Both motions can be seen as an escape from a trapped foot; even if they are recorded in the solo form a little differently.

When comparing styles I’ve used the analogy of differing writing styles: If one person were to write down a poem using a red biro on a crumpled piece of brown paper, and another were to write down the exact same poem on parchment using ornate calligraphy, then at first glance they would look very different. However, on closer examination we would see that the exact same information is present even if the “recording style” is different. Personally, that is what I see here when we compare the Shotokan and Shito-Ryu versions.

To follow that thought for a moment: Both styles have “isocracies” that in many ways define the style, but at the core it’s all the same stuff. Mabuni (founder of Shito-Ryu) said, “There are no styles of karate, only varying interpretations of its principles.” Funakoshi (founder of Shotokan) said, “There is no place in modern karate for different schools … My belief is that karate should be amalgamated into one”. It’s therefore all “just karate” in the view of these two gentlemen. And I agree.

Personally, I dislike the notion of “Shotokan kata”, “Wado-Ryu kata”, “Shito-Ryu kata”, etc and instead think it is more accurate to say, “Kata as performed by Shotokan”, “Kata as performed by Shito-Ryu”, etc. The majority of kata have, of course, been around for far longer than the “styles” so it is therefore inaccurate to infer “ownership” of a kata by using the style as the primary descriptor.

In this case we have two variations on what was once a common form. I therefore see it as the same information recorded in different ways as opposed to two separate forms with different functions. I also don’t think it’s a case of one being “right” and the other being “wrong” as they are at the core the same. We may have personal preferences as to “better” or “worse”, but they are value judgements as opposed to anything concrete and a sound case can be made either way.

I also think that one thing, that maybe most will agree on, is that comparing and contrasting different variations of a common form can bring insights and understanding that sticking to just one variation cannot. It’s a little like viewing the same thing from differing angles and therefore getting a “3D perspective” as opposed to a “2D one”.

All the best,

Iain

(#) – The arm position in the above video – arm bent, palm into fist – as the knee is raised can be seen as  clinch around the neck to prevent being immediately dropped prior to attempting the following escape.

Thinking along similar lines to Iain (I Think!).

• If you take it from the attacker catching the defenders left leg.
• The defender then uses his other foot to kick the attacker in the head with a roundhouse kick
• and continues the movement and the follow through to end up on the ground

This video here shows what I was thinking, but without the leg kick at the beginning. I do think the leg catch is vital, as it seems to high risk to practise without.

Leigh Simms wrote:

Thinking along similar lines to Iain (I Think!).

My take on things is not so acrobatic. Making the description as basic as possible: Enemy has picked up / caught one of your legs. Turn away from the enemy and put your hands on the floor. Kick to the chest / groin with the free leg as you simultaneously pull the trapped leg out (the leg switch on the landing in the kata). You are now in the “sprinters start” position to run in the opposite direction. I’m too old and big to jump high enough to get the head kick in :-)

All the best,

Iain

Maybe its one of these...  :-)

Gosh! I think those techiques are really irresponsible in a training environment...

Looks hyper-cool right upto the point where his training partner is paralised from neck down.

By way of comparison the "turn and pull leg free" counter to a leg grab is pretty common in MMA as a counter to a single leg takedown. Tried to find a gif or clip of it happening but can't. :)

The kick back is not so common but comes into play defending against leg locks by placing the foot on the butt of the other guy.

I thought those takedowns were bad a$$--  I'd never seen anything quite like that before, which is saying something.

The suggestion that it was a valid Kusanku bunkai was meant in jest.   The point was they very well 'could be' and we still wouldn't know... every kata meaning we add TODAY is 'guess-ulative', although some guesses are admittedly better than others.

I agree however, that they do look quite high risk, and they look about as 'combat effective' as a flying kick. Impressive athleticism all the same.

You haven't seen anything like that video? Really? You need to watch Quantum Jujitsu

Awesome video Tau, just incredible!

Yup. Almost no realism to it whatsoever, but seriously impressive.tdh

Kind of like a more aggressive XMA demonstration...