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Graziano
Graziano's picture
Karate Strikes

Hello to everyone! I have got  some question  about the karate strikes.

1) Hiki-Te. All karate hand strike, like punch strike with the open hand and elbow strike, use the hikite. I know who hikite is a way for grapping the opponent, but of it's not possible to  grappling your opponent where the hand go?

2) How traditonal punchs and elbows strike are? What the difference beetween  Karate punch and boxer punch and karate elbows strike and muay thai?

3)  Were there kizami zuki (jab) and oizuki (lunge punch ) on traditional okinawa karate.   

4) When using the Vertical punch, or Horizontal?

5) Many says who on traditional karate there weren t kicks like roundhouse etc. but only the front kick, is it true?

Chris R
Chris R's picture

These questions are huge topics in of themsevles, but I have tried to write a quick answer to each. This is just my opinion on your questions, anybody is welcome to criticize what I have wrote or add to it:

1. If you are not using this hand to do something (like grab), then it should be a part of your guard. Keep it up to protect yourself from incoming strikes.

2. Not much difference in the overall mechanics, though there are some things that Karate practitioners do a bit differently. This is a somewhat complicated topic so I suggest you research into it. It would take a while to explain from scratch.

3. I believe that they were, as basic straight punching and elbows would definitely have been a part of traditional Karate. But in terms of the lunge punch, keep in mind that in kata a lunge punch does not always mean you are actually throwing a straight punch to your opponent's torso. It can have many different meanings depending on the kata. Stepping lunge punches in their traditional format are not used in real fighting.

4. Karate includes both horizontal and vertical punching techniques. You don't have to restrict yourself to practicing one or the other, plus your choice depends on what you actually use Karate for. For example, if you just do katas and point sparring there would be little point in learning a vertical fist punch. Which one is better in a bareknuckle fight is a controversial topic that you should research to come up with your own opinion. Neither version is always "right" or "wrong."

The Kick: I think that traditional Karate practitioners did not consider the roundhouse kick to be one of the more important strikes. This was likely because the roundhouse kick has limited applications in a street self defence scenario, compared to other strikes. I think that roundhouse kicks might have been a part of Karate originally, but they would not have been prioritized, or placed in the katas alongside the most important techniques.

Marc
Marc's picture

Hi Graziano,

here are some first thoughts on your questions. I'm sure there will be more detailed answers by other forum members.

Graziano wrote:

1 HIKITE

All karate hand strike, like punch strike with the open hand and elbow strike, use the hikite. I know who hikite is a way for grapping the opponent, but of it's not possible to  grappling your opponent where the hand go?

When we are hitting with one hand, we can basically use the non-hitting hand for three things:

1) Deflecting or blocking incoming attacks (while we hit at the same time - also called De-Ai).

2) Clearing the way, i.e. grabbing and moving limbs so we can reach the target of our own hit. The function of Hikite you mentioned in your question comes into play here.

3) Gathering sensory intelligence, i.e. finding or keeping contact to the opponent's body, so we know where and how they move and where their head is, so we can hit it.

If none of the three is possible, and we still attempt to hit, then the other hand should probably protect our head or go the the "fence" position in front of our body to be ready when needed.

Graziano wrote:

2 How traditonal punchs and elbows strike are? What the difference beetween  Karate punch and boxe punch and karate elbows strike and muay thai?

Since punches and elbow strikes are both included in karate katas, I think it is safe to say that they are both quite traditional. I would definitely include strikes with the lower arm, because the way I read kata I see them all over the place.

I have no personal experience in either boxing or muay thai. But I would think the fact that in sports boxing the fighters wear huge gloves, requires/allows different punching techniques than bare-knuckle self-defence situations would permit.

Graziano wrote:

3  were there  kizami zuki (jab) and oizuki (lunge punch ) on traditional okinawa karate.

If I look at what kind of techniques are included in the katas I know, I don't think there are any Kizami-Zuki.

Oi-Zuki on the other hand, are included in many katas.

Graziano wrote:

4 When using the Vertical punch, or orrizontal?

I like to say that it depends on the distance and on the target. A standard Tsuki, starting from the hip and stopping when the arm is fully extended goes through the stages of an upper-cut (minimal extension), a vertical punch (medium extension), and a horizontal punch (maximal extension).

Graziano wrote:

THE KICK

Many says who on traditional karate there  weren t kicks like roundhouse ecc. but only the front kick, is it thrue?

Again, I look at the katas I know for reference. I don't see any Mawashi-Geri (roundhouse kick), Ura-Mawashi-Geri oder Ushiro-Geri as we might use them in sports kumite. But there are several other kicking techniques. From the top of my head I can list the following:

Mae-Geri, Mae-Ashi-Geri, Yoko-Geri Keage (the traditional way looking more like a Mae-Geri to the side), Fumikomi-Geri, Mikazuki-Geri, Nami-Gaeshi, Hiza-Geri, Mae-Tobi-Ren-Geri, and arguably the stepping across sideways moves like we see in Tekki/Naihanchi.

Also, originally all kicks were low, i.e. below waist height.

Anyway, that were my initial thoughts.

Take care,

Marc

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Chris and Mark have already pretty much covered everything I would have said. I will add, for reference, that variants of kizami-tsuki and oi-tsuki are not only present in the kata and kihon we see today, but also in the practices of older arts like Motobu Udundi, which is mostly known for its tuidi, rather than its striking methods:

To further that point, Motobu Choki was no stranger to such punches:

To the point of mawashi-geri, I would point out that when kicking to the inside of the legs, especially, there is little difference between mawashi-geri and an angled mae-geri. In regards to mawashi-geri in kata, specifically, this is something Paul Enfield Sensei actually posted a video to address fairly recently:

Chris R
Chris R's picture

Wastelander wrote:

To the point of mawashi-geri, I would point out that when kicking to the inside of the legs, especially, there is little difference between mawashi-geri and an angled mae-geri. In regards to mawashi-geri in kata, specifically, this is something Paul Enfield Sensei actually posted a video to address fairly recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbmI-pzkqAY

If you don't mind elaborating, I'd be interested to know what movements in kata you think intend to show these kicks? I am referring to a gedan mawashi-geri that lands with the shin, similar to what is shown in the video link you posted. I've never personally interpreted a kata technique to mean a low kick before so it would be cool to see your interpretation if that's possible.

Also in response to the other part of your post, why would you try to throw a low kick that resembles an angled mae-geri? If you goal is to cause soft tissue damage, it is not going to be anywhere near as effective as turning over the hip and landing with the shin. That's my view on this type of kick at least.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Chris R wrote:

Wastelander wrote:

To the point of mawashi-geri, I would point out that when kicking to the inside of the legs, especially, there is little difference between mawashi-geri and an angled mae-geri. In regards to mawashi-geri in kata, specifically, this is something Paul Enfield Sensei actually posted a video to address fairly recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbmI-pzkqAY

If you don't mind elaborating, I'd be interested to know what movements in kata you think intend to show these kicks? I am referring to a gedan mawashi-geri that lands with the shin, similar to what is shown in the video link you posted. I've never personally interpreted a kata technique to mean a low kick before so it would be cool to see your interpretation if that's possible.

Also in response to the other part of your post, why would you try to throw a low kick that resembles an angled mae-geri? If you goal is to cause soft tissue damage, it is not going to be anywhere near as effective as turning over the hip and landing with the shin. That's my view on this type of kick at least.

Seiyunchin is the example I am most familiar with, although Pinan Godan has a similar step that can be used the same way. In these cases, it isn't so much a matter of what was "intended" as what is "possible" with the mechanics of the movement. The kata regularly use your stance to buckle the legs of the opponent, and using steps as kicks is a very normal part of bunkai, so it's not a big leap.

As to the "angled mae-geri" comment, I was mainly referring to inside leg kicks. If the goal is to cause soft tissue damage, from the Okinawan karate perspective you would kick with the tips of the toes, or ball of the foot, rather than the shin, because you will strike with a much smaller surface area. In doing so, you reduce the need for raw power. That said, you are still going to turn your hips slighly--even in a regular mae-geri, the hips aren't perfectly stationary, after all--but it is much more of a whipping kick than a "baseball bat swing" of a kick.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

 

Graziano wrote:
1) Hiki-Te. All karate hand strike, like punch strike with the open hand and elbow strike, use the hikite. I know who hikite is a way for grapping the opponent, but of it's not possible to  grappling your opponent where the hand go?

If it’s not busy, it should be held up ready to be busy. In “fighting”, when a hand is held up in a “guard” that is its role … however, for karate within the self-defence context, the defined role is not to be a passive guard, but an active facilitator. So, if it’s not yet active, it will be up ready to be active ASAP. Looks pretty much the same as a guard, but tactically it’s quite different.

The hiki-te has other roles besides pulling of course. It can be a clearing limbs, motioning position, helping get an angle, etc, etc. But if it is not yet active, it should be up and ready to be active at the first opportunity.

Graziano wrote:
2) How traditional punches and elbows strike are? What the difference between  Karate punch and boxer punch and karate elbows strike and muay thai?

There are many “karate” ways to punch and elbow. It’s not alike all karateka do everything in exactly the same way. However, in general terms, there is little difference in terms of technique. There are tactical differences because of the differing goals (consensual violence as opposed to non-consensual violence); which would also include the use of the other hand to facilitate as per the above question.

Graziano wrote:
3)Were there kizami zuki (jab) and oizuki (lunge punch ) on traditional okinawa karate.

Yep. They are everywhere.

Graziano wrote:
4)When using the Vertical punch, or Horizontal?

Learn and practise both (and other hand positions too). Use whatever one is appropriate to the given circumstances. My beginners learn both, and palm-heel, as their initial strikes.

Graziano wrote:
5) Many says who on traditional karate there weren’t kicks like roundhouse etc. but only the front kick, is it true?

Front kick was not the only kick, but roundhouse specifically was not included back then. Look at the kata. The old texts are also interesting in this regard. For example, lots of kicking techniques are listed and discussed in Funakoshi’s books, but roundhouse is not among them. It does not appear in his books until the 1950s reprint when it is added in. Given the fact that is the quintessential karate kick today, it’s total absence from all of the earlier texts, and the kata, can be something of a surprise to modern karateka.

The reason for this is probably because roundhouse has a much greater role in martial duelling than it does in close-range, non-consensual, criminal violence. As the objective of training shifts from self-protection to out-fighting a fellow karateka, roundhouse becomes more important. If you are within arm’s length, you can skill front kick, side kick, crescent kick, returning-wake kick, knee, etc the legs of the enemy to good effect. You can even do those when clinched. Roundhouse, not so much. It can be done, but it’s not anywhere near as effective as the other options. Add in a little distance and a little back and forth, and then we see roundhouse become the head of the pack.

All the best,

Iain

muratmat
muratmat's picture

I usually say that gedan mawashi geri (muay thai like) is still preserved in Shotokai/Shotokan Gankaku. For example see this video at secs 00:20

Dillon
Dillon's picture

The flavor of round-kick that is like an angled maegeri shows it's utility primarily in close range fighting, where there's not often space to roll the hip over fully. Interestingly that angled mawashi, and it's reverse (knee angled the other direction, not like a hook kick) can be really useful in that range, because they can clear the knee to the side of the opponents body and provide space to kick when even a maegeri might be jammed up.