Kata/Forms

Hi Jerome,

my take on that issue is this:

First of all are older versions of a certain Kata better than the newer? I think it depends. When a Master "who knows what he is doing" changes a kata then it would be ok or even better than the old version. Old masters changed their kata permanently anyway. When you learned a Kata under Itosu in 1870 and you compare that to a version he thaught in 1905 it would be perfectly normal when those two versions differ. People develop over time and so do their opinions about certain things. When Kata gets changed because something was forgotten or not understood thats another matter and detrimental to the art.

Back to your question. You should research the application of your current form that is utilised within your club/organisation. You can look at older versions or version of other styles to broaden your knowledge.

I am a Shotokan practitioner and I study my Shotokan forms. But I always compare a certain application to versions of other styles or older versions and try to understand why there are differences. Sometimes it is only the exploitation of another target (kidneys instead of the head), sometimes it is another technique based on the same principle to solve a common problem. This way you get to know different solutions to the same problem which could be helpful if something is not going to work the way you intended it to be.

To give you an excample. At the beginning of Bassai Dai there are a couple of Uchi Uke movements and at the beginning of Matsumura Passai there are a couple of Age Uke movements. Both can be used if you are dealing with a single lapel grip. Problem when using the Age Uke (old version) is, that in case the opponent is turning the head away you are not be able to connect the rising arm with the head right and worst case is you are ending up missing the head at all. With Uchi Uke chances are small to miss the head. So in my eyes this is an improvement to the former method. So old is not necessarily better.

Thats how I see it.

Regards Holger

Hi Jerome

Funnily enough I'm just editing a video where I touch upon this. 

Personally I think an older version of the Kata can give you ideas for applications when you are developing drills and applications (for example a change from a side snap kick to a front kick to the side may make you look at the context of something differently), but that doesn't necessarily mean that the older version is better or more important.  As Kyohan says it is of use, it is of interest, but I'm not convinced it is always necessary.  You are never going to definitively find the oldest version of something unless you are prepared to invest in a time machine and make a definitive (yet challengeable) judgement about what constitutes a new form.

What we need to bear in mind is that the application of the Kata's originator (whether original or modified version) may not be the best application avaialble or a suitable application for you or your students.  Another sad truth is that the Kata's designer may not have been as experienced (whether in training depth, training breadth or actual fighting experience) or as knowledgeable as you and may not have even had a truly applicable appliction in mind.  What is important is that you find applications that you can work from a form you are doing and that you can rationalise any deviations from the form (if you feel the need).

There is no such thing as 'original forms', the moment they are taught to another person they are not the same form. The only question is whether or not they fit the function of what is being done, i've seen lots of stuff where people say "put your fist this way", "put your foot here", but have no reason behind it. IMO that is worse than doing the Kata "wrong" from some traditional viewpoint, but knowing the why behind the techniques. If you have  a bunch of stuff your are
'supposed' to do and don't know why, the tendency is for the mind to invent reasons for it, and that can't lead to anything good.

Thanks for the replies. I remember as a kid training thinking the standard down block took to long and wasn't a great match up (radius and ulna vs tib and fib!) but after years of just doing it you find a way to make it work. I guess regardless you have to keep looking, learning and refining. It does seem a big ask for the learner to fill in massive gaps of information by telling untruths such as this guy does x so you do y but when y doesn't work do z but if none of those work blah blah blah. Kata is asthetically pleasing, a good way of working up a sweat and a great tool for visualisation. It would seem from the endless permutations derived from the movements its a bit of a guessing game. I'll carry on with the heavy bag and crazy multiple sparring. If nothing else at least you learn why  you don't jump in the air and land with your legs and arms crossed real quickly when it 3 v 1!

Best regards

Jerome.

jerome sandiford wrote:

Thanks for the replies. I remember as a kid training thinking the standard down block took to long and wasn't a great match up (radius and ulna vs tib and fib!) but after years of just doing it you find a way to make it work. I guess regardless you have to keep looking, learning and refining. It does seem a big ask for the learner to fill in massive gaps of information by telling untruths such as this guy does x so you do y but when y doesn't work do z but if none of those work blah blah blah. Kata is asthetically pleasing, a good way of working up a sweat and a great tool for visualisation. It would seem from the endless permutations derived from the movements its a bit of a guessing game. I'll carry on with the heavy bag and crazy multiple sparring. If nothing else at least you learn why  you don't jump in the air and land with your legs and arms crossed real quickly when it 3 v 1!

Best regards

Jerome.

I don't think I've taught down block as a response to a kick for at least a decade. 

Putting aside kata changed for say sport presentation, xma and such like. And where mechanics have gone mad...........(the whole hip wobbling thing, the crazy big circle stepping which just looks silly etc.)

I really do not think it matters much, the core movements remain close enough in most Ryu- however the knowledge of your teacher, and after some time indeed 'how' you look at and train your kata is significant.

If you can extract the strateigies, principles and techniques then you have indeed come along way - now get on and train it.....................

Personally I find myself more confused than ever logically and mentally, but I seem to 'know' my kata much better in terms of physical use.

One thing that Jim touched on - it's all about the methodlogy used to 'read' and use kata.

You can take two people from completely different tradtions, and if the methodology is sound they will come up with similar results, though of course individually tailoired.