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Anf
Anf's picture
Knife disarm techniques - counterproductive?

Hi all. In our syllabus, we have a set of techniques for defending against various knife attacks. While they are fun to practice in the company of trusted fellow students, with fake knives, I wonder if they are practical at all, or worse, if they are counterproductive.

I'm thinking that if someone were to come at me with a knife, my first instinct is going to be to get out of the way as quickly as possible. If that's not an option, and I absolutely have to fight, then I think I'd want to throw something at them as a distraction and then either run or go mental with kicks to try to smash their limbs as quickly as possible to take away their ability to grip the knife or use it in a meaningful way. I actually think the very last thing I'd want to do is meet them and try to apply a fancy technique, wrestle them to the ground, then try to convince a raging psycho to voluntarily give up the knife by using a bit of pain to his wrist, if I manage to get the technique just right under pressure with someone who has already demonstrated their willingness to kill me if they get a chance.

OK so it might not be that effective, but it's got to be better than nothing right? Here's my thinking. Maybe. As a last resort. But I do wonder if the more naive students, the younger ones perhaps, the ones that win medals for their sparring prowess and can apply techniques with easy in the training hall, might believe so much in their skills that should the situation arise, they attempt it rather than just legging it.

Any thoughts?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Anf wrote:
it's got to be better than nothing right?

I think such complex disarms are worse than nothing. They encourage dangerous and impractical actions and hence do nothing but harm. You are rightly sceptical about them, but for many they give a false sense of confidence because people think they will work. As true martial “ART” there is no harm learning them for historical interest, but no one should ever suggest they have a practical use.

The system I originally come from has some questionable knife drills too. Thankfully, my instructor saw the folly in them and they were never a formal part of my practise. We now have just four live drills for “weapons defence” (need to be taught in person), and not one disarm.

Disarms are dangerous and pointless. Disarm this?

 

An old podcast on weapons defence:

https://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/weapon-defence

All the best,

Iain

Ian H
Ian H's picture

The impression I get (from listening to lots of people who know a lot more than me about knives) is that knives are used in one of two ways:

1. as a weapon to slice open the opponent (ie you)

2. as a display to get something from you other than you being sliced open

If your attacker is intent on #1, and he knows what he's doing, you probably won't see the knife before you feel it.  I've yet to see a "knife disarm technique" that adequately deals with this scenario ... but I'm happy to learn.  If it's #2, you likely have a far "easier out" than grappling with the knife, so go that route instead.  

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

As mentioned above, we have four drills for knifes. They really need to be done to be understood, and describing them is almost sure to lead to misunderstandings. However, what I will say is the four drills are set up to practise the following scenarios:

1. Enemy attempts to draw a weapon

2. Enemy threatens with a weapon

3. “The Awkward Distance” (weapon drawn in dialogue stages where the enemy can’t be hit without you having to close a gap, but that gap is not sufficient for you to run).

4. “The Mad Scramble” (enemy attempting to repeatedly stab and slash in a frantic way at close range).

All of the drills are escapes focused and include no disarms (they don’t work).

All the best,

Iain

Ian H
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Iain Abernethy wrote:

As mentioned above, we have four drills for knifes. They really need to be done to be understood, and describing them is almost sure to lead to misunderstandings. However, ...

Those drills would make an excellend basis for a new DVD!  

I'd much rather learn them from you in person over multiple training sessions, and I'm sure so would the rest of us, but ... the reality is that for most of us we probably won't ever get to train with you in person, or maybe just once or twice at a guest-visit seminar, and your videos are how we learn in-depth about what you have to teach.  

Marc
Marc's picture

Ian H wrote:

Iain Abernethy wrote:

As mentioned above, we have four drills for knifes. They really need to be done to be understood, and describing them is almost sure to lead to misunderstandings. However, ...

Those drills would make an excellend basis for a new DVD!

I'd much rather learn them from you in person over multiple training sessions, and I'm sure so would the rest of us, but ... the reality is that for most of us we probably won't ever get to train with you in person, or maybe just once or twice at a guest-visit seminar, and your videos are how we learn in-depth about what you have to teach.

+1 to that. I would love to see your approach to handling these scenarios.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
As mentioned above, we have four drills for knifes. They really need to be done to be understood, and describing them is almost sure to lead to misunderstandings. However, ...

Ian H wrote:
Those drills would make an excellent basis for a new DVD!

Marc wrote:
+1 to that. I would love to see your approach to handling these scenarios.

Thanks for your interest in the drills. They are not compilated, but their value is in the doing of them. They need to be done where I can personally communicate them, see them being done, correct any misunderstandings, and make personal suggestions on how individuals can better achieve the objectives of each drill.

DVDs are good for communicating technique, etc but, as I said earlier, these drills “really need to be done to be understood, and describing them is almost sure to lead to misunderstandings.”

The good thing is that I can cover all of them in under 1 hour. They are simple (in concept) and very “lively”. Once I am sure the individual understands them, then it’s just practise after that.

I have covered them at seminars in the past. All I can suggest is that you keep an eye out for an even where I will be covering them. As I say, I don’t think they would work on DVD / YouTube videos because they are interactive and really do need to be done in person.

All the best,

Iain

Marc
Marc's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Ian H wrote:
Those drills would make an excellent basis for a new DVD!

Marc wrote:
+1 to that. I would love to see your approach to handling these scenarios.

I have covered them at seminars in the past. All I can suggest is that you keep an eye out for an even where I will be covering them. As I say, I don’t think they would work on DVD / YouTube videos because they are interactive and really do need to be done in person.

That makes sense, of course. Especially the individual advice to adapt the concepts to each practitioner.

So I hope, there will be an opportunity to learn them in person. Maybe in Meckenheim, Germany, in September 2018? I'll have a rubber knife at hand... :-)

All the best

Marc

Paul_L
Paul_L's picture

After reading the various posts in this threads and others regarding weapons defence I have started to form an opinion that I would like to share to see what other forums members think about it.

Weapons defence for general members of the public (like me) should be devised from the ground up for the desired outcome. So in this case its really about avoiding the situation in the first place, but if it does happen getting out of the situation safely with the least amount of actual physical violence and remaining within the law. This is were I am starting to have an issue with defence techniques that stem from policing, military or combatative techniques where the core aim is to apprehend or kill the enemy which are then modified or fudged for general public self defence.

I’m interested to know what other people think about this?

Anf
Anf's picture

Paul_L that's a very interesting assessment you've made. Very thought provoking. I wish I was knowledgeable enough on this topic to be able to present anything conclusive but that's not going to happen.

I've practiced knife defence in two different schools, each with different styles. That's obviously not enough to be 'knowledgeable' so it's just my limited experience. In both cases, the instructors never claim it works every time. In both cases they say you WILL get cut in a scuffle with a blade, but they say the goal is to try to make the difference between serious injury that may result in death, and minor injury incurred before escaping. In both cases the techniques are actually remarkably simple. But I still don't believe they are anything like reliable. But I think you make an excellent point, that the techniques are based on military techniques. Worse. Outdated military techniques. I know that present day soldiers still train for the eventuality of a close quarters hand to hand fight, with the possibility of knives and improvised weapons being used. But I do wonder if some of the techniques in traditional martial arts are designed to work against a tired bloke in bamboo armour whose just fallen off his horse right in front of some enemy infantry, rather than a young smack head who wants to rob you to pay for his next fix.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Paul_L wrote:
This is were I am starting to have an issue with defence techniques that stem from policing, military or combatative techniques where the core aim is to apprehend or kill the enemy which are then modified or fudged for general public self-defence.

We also need to remember that police and military work in teams and have body armour and weaponry that civilians don’t. They have the tools and people to carry out their objectives (restrain or neutralise). As you say, the civilian’s objective in self-defence is different … AND they are not likely to be part of a trained team, be wearing a stab vest, and have batons, pepper spray, hand cuffs or firearms to hand.

We always need to look at the problem and work the solution from there. We can’t take the solution to another problem and move it across, unaltered, and expect it to be a perfect fit.

All the best,

Iain