Koryo the lost form of Kukki Taekwondo

Hello

i think that i can help. this form has been part of our curriculum since its inception. GM Richard Chun maintained many of the old forms and simply added the newer kukki forms. He and Mr. Doug Cook have written a book comparing this older form with it's newer namesake. i have written the bunkai applications for both forms in that book. publication date has not been set yet. 

unfortunately no one was able to specify (for attribution) the exact political nature of the discontinuance of this particular form. political it was, not the least being the popularity of that name. 

the versions that you site in the videos have followed the more modern approach of smoothing out the less conventional stances in favor of more common ones. the opening was originally a slightly modified cat stance, and the "knife hand" swept across horizontally, and was not considered a block.

further discussion probably beyond the limits of a small post but feel free to contact me for more info. 

richard

Hi Richard and thanks for the reply.

Do you know why GM Richard Chun felt the need to maintain the older forms along the newer "Kukki style" forms? This was something I was wandering when I started the thread  

Oerjan Nilsen wrote:

If you found an individual who practise the form who learned it from a good source (not from a book, or magazine but by an actual and knowledgeable instructor) would you/should you reintroduce the form in to your training? E. g. Shotokan have several Dai and Sho Kata in their systems (kanku dai and Kanku sho for example). 

 Does he still practise the original forms of the old Kwans (E.g the Pyongan, Chulgi, pal saek, etc derived from Karate)? I hope you will make it known on the recomended section of the forum when you know when the book is due. I have seen on the blog that the book was in writing and I am eagerly awaiting its publication:)

Since you have written about the bunkai related to the form I would be very interested in hearing what you think can be learned from the form (tactics and strategy contained in the form).

Are there any other Dojang out there who have this form in their training? Or are there anybody out there thinking of making this form a part of their study?

Best regards from Oerjan.

Hello

1. i suspect that having come out of Moodokwan that he preferred to keep many of the forms he started with. i am grateful for that as i appreciate the depth and variation that they contain.

2. while unfortunately, the school no longer exists, yes, we practiced all the forms mentioned, and a few more relatively obscure ones (eg. Tae Gi Hul, Kibon, etc). all of the schools that came from his students practice these as well.

3. the forms were demonstrated giving the standard, block punch kick, nomenclature. that being said i think that there is a wealth of material that is available not readily found in the newer forms. a couple of examples: the opening move harks back to when opponents fought in low light, they had to feel to locate and distance attack. there are chokes demonstrated, and finally the concept of disengaging (breaking away) to gain distance--something i have never seen repeated as directly.

4. all applications writing is based on certain assumptions. if you have seen the ones of mine published in Totally TKD you will note that i prefer those that are more combative (ie. more damaging) than many. i think that these shouldn't be watered down to merely percussive approaches.

anyway, hope that helps. i can be reached at richard@returningwavesystems.com email me with contact detail if you would like a more in depth explanation.

regards richard

I've actually added this to my Syllabus, because it looks like an excellent form to do.

Would love to discuss Application of the form with all of you

Hi Black tiger. May ask where you picked up the form?:) It seems to be quite rare, and does the version you have learned differ from the videos and magazine article provided earlier in the discussion? If so what are the variation and why do you think you are performing it the way you are? And why do you think it looks like an excellent form to do?:) Sorry for all the questions but I have a curious mind:p Personally I am eagerly awaiting the publication of the book by master Cook and GM Richard Chun. I have played around with the form and its variations to see if I can unravel some good lessons for them. Do you have any good applications from the form that you want to share with us Black Tiger?:)

Best regards from Oerjan.

Hello

as the person who wrote the Poomse applications for GM Chun and master Cook's book on Koryo i feel obligated to re-enter the discussion. here are a couple of apps that do not appear in the book

1. (elbow series) triceps entry as block of attack, lock on neck, elbow attack to head as right knee hits GB 31,32 (lateral thigh) if avaliable, if not leg is interposed to prevent opponent from stepping to regain balance. left hand(one on neck) reaches 3/4 around to grasp hair and rotating the head throw opponent to ground as you shift weight to back stance. 

2.as noted prior, the opening move used to be done as a cat stance, and forward hand swept in a more horizontal arc to locate opponent in low light situations. this move enabled one to locate and range,you close off your centerline, and remove lower body targets in one complete motion.

hope this makes sense as it is hard to describe in short posts. 

regards

richard

Black Tiger wrote:

I've actually added this to my Syllabus, because it looks like an excellent form to do.

Would love to discuss Application of the form with all of you

Just looked at this thread again, Last Time I looked I think it was on my Blackberry. I saw the name but couldn't see the videos at the time

The Poomsae that I practice is this one, which is the Modern version i think

Yes thats the modern one who replaced the original one that this discussion is about. I have opened a new thread so we can share applications on this pattern.

Hi:)

richard conceicao wrote:

1. (elbow series) triceps entry as block of attack, lock on neck, elbow attack to head as right knee hits GB 31,32 (lateral thigh) if avaliable, if not leg is interposed to prevent opponent from stepping to regain balance. left hand(one on neck) reaches 3/4 around to grasp hair and rotating the head throw opponent to ground as you shift weight to back stance. 

Where in the pattern are you with this application? The wedge block, elbow smash and then low knife hand block?

richard conceicao wrote:

2.as noted prior, the opening move used to be done as a cat stance, and forward hand swept in a more horizontal arc to locate opponent in low light situations. this move enabled one to locate and range,you close off your centerline, and remove lower body targets in one complete motion.

This is an interesting application (and technique). Does anything like this ever occur in the other "kukki" poomsae? The concept might have been completly lost by 1972 (when the "new" Koryo and Taegeuk Poomsae came out), but if it was there in 1965 when the original was formulated was any "low level light fighting" included in the other Kukki black belt poomsae? They were compiled at the same time as the original Koryo was made so I was just wondering if you have seen the concept expressed in the other or maybe your teacher teaches the "oldest" forms of the Kukki poomsae (they are constantly revised) where it is more clearly expressed?

As for the opening with a more main stream Taekwondo knife hand guarding block I see the opening block as a defense against a haymaker punch to the face, the backward hand traps the attacking limb and controls it (the hand at solar plexus height), while simultanious striking the throat with the knife hand. Then you strike the throat again with a half closed fist, breaking the oponents knee with a powerfull sidekick, lock the oponents arm with an underhook with your right arm, and punching him with the left arm (the last part is the horse stance cross block section of the pattern).

Hello

1. yes, sequence is the one you mentioned. comparable to similar sequence in balsek (basai).

2. as i originally practiced it, it was as described. as with most, no specific apps were attributed to it. The low light concept is actually older and can be found in early shotokan forms. as with those, movements were homogenized to conform to basic block/punch terminology. indeed this form has been "revised" to a back stance knife hand block combo. the same movement can be found at the end of early MDK forms (Kibon 5)

Utilization of the forward hand to locate and range your opponent is an instinctive movement. while it is illegal in modern day boxing, it can be found in almost any fighting situation.

although this should probably be in the interpretation section, when writing the apps for the book (and myself) i prefer to look at some of the historical antecedents of modern day motions. they are invariably wider ranging in their variety. i also wanted to give practitioners a sense of many different technical considerations were available to them.

with regard to you modern approach--i say if you can make it work under pressure-it's right! as for me, i used the horse stance cross block as a representation of a forward cross choke technique (juji jime) but that's just me.