14 posts / 0 new
Last post
JasonStewart
JasonStewart's picture
Legal ramifications of Knife Hand Strike to base of the neck?

Hello all, new to the forums. I've noticed that a great deal of bunkai involves the technique of trapping one of the opponent's arms and striking to the base of the neck with the knife hand.  Is it just me or is that technique really dangerous?  I'm a large guy and I've been practicing karate strikes for a long time and I feel like if I held someone's arm and pulled their neck into a knife hand strike I could paralyze/kill them.  I'm worried that, if I ever was in an altercation, I would perform this manuever reflexively against an opponent that didn't warrent such a response? Of course, there are other quite dangerous moves in kata but the knife hand occurs so frequently it is second nature.  Has anyone had any experience strking someone full force to the neck with knife hand?  What was the outcome?  Am I just being paranoid?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

JasonStewart wrote:
I've  noticed that a great deal of bunkai involves the technique of trapping one of the opponent's arms and striking to the base of the neck with the knife hand.  Is it just me or is that technique really dangerous?  I'm a large guy and I've been practicing karate strikes for a long time and I feel like if I held someone's arm and pulled their neck into a knife hand strike I could paralyze/kill them.  I'm worried that, if I ever was in an altercation, I would perform this manuever reflexively against an opponent that didn't warrent such a response?

Welcome to the forum!

Hitting someone in the neck is indeed dangerous. However, what techniques isn't? Just about everything we do can range from no result whatsoever to fatal depending on a myriad of factors. Kick a guy in the shin and a resulting fall can be fatal. There is no safe way to harm people.

It's not so much about what we do, but why we do it. Hitting someone in the neck during a fight that resulted because of your own lack of emotional control is very different to hitting someone in the neck because of the inevitable and unavoidable violence of others.

Would it be wrong to hit someone in the neck over ego? It sure would be. Morally and legally. Would it be right for a teenage girl to strike someone hard in the throat to escape the prospect of gang rape? It sure would be! Morally and legally.

So it's not the technique, but the motivations for the technique.

I'm not sure where in the world you are based, but UK law states that it is unreasonable to expect a person to judge to a nicety the level of force used & if action was honest and instinctive then that is strong evidence that reasonable force was used. Here is the exact text:

"If there has been an attack so that self defence is reasonably necessary, it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action. If the jury thought that that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought necessary, that would be the most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken ..."

I know that the only time I would use any technique on anyone would be if there was truly no other way of ensuring the safety of me and mine in the face of the unprovoked violence of others. I think it's that commitment to avoid violence that will keep me morally and legally in the right. It's also way more important than technique selection and UK law does not require me to make such nuanced decisions.

All the best,

Iain

Leigh Simms
Leigh Simms's picture

Hi Jason!

I think it is healthy for you to think about the legal ramifications to an extent. Sadly, I feel there are many out there that ignore the issue or don't think about it at all. 

Iain's post covers your question spot on and I think it brings up a number of interesting topics! I really like the concept of "there is no safe way to harm people". As Iain said the law does not expect us to intricately weigh the threat against us with the self-defence techniques we use. There is no "weighing of the scales" required under UK Law. Also, it is entirely plausible to strike someone in the neck numerous times and to ultimately cause no serious damage, whereas you may push an attacker away and they could fall and die. 

I think they key is to have a very high threshold for when you would decide to use physical force. 

For me, using phyiscal force will only be required when I have exhausted all other options of ensuring the safety of me and my loved ones when confronted with immediate and unlawful violence from another person/people.

Tau
Tau's picture

Leigh Simms wrote:
For me, using phyiscal force will only be required when I have exhausted all other options of ensuring the safety of me and my loved ones when confronted with immediate and unlawful violence from another person/people.

I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong here, but I would say that when it comes to legal ramifications it's less about the specific technique and more about applying the principle that you've stated here and being able to articulate that post-event

css1971
css1971's picture

JasonStewart wrote:

Hello all, new to the forums. I've noticed that a great deal of bunkai involves the technique of trapping one of the opponent's arms and striking to the base of the neck with the knife hand.  Is it just me or is that technique really dangerous?

Hi.

It is. In fact going through the applications in the "children's" Pinans gives me a shiver thinking about it. It's all brutal... And the older katas just get even more "medieval".

JasonStewart wrote:
I'm a large guy and I've been practicing karate strikes for a long time and I feel like if I held someone's arm and pulled their neck into a knife hand strike I could paralyze/kill them.  I'm worried that, if I ever was in an altercation, I would perform this manuever reflexively against an opponent that didn't warrent such a response?

It's a problem of the situation. People have been killed by single untrained punches. If you hit someone you're going to have to face up to the fact that there will be consequences and none of them will be pleasant. The best possible outcome of a fight is exactly the same as if you never had it in the first place, and it's all downhill from there. Most never think about it. I avoid environments which might put me in to a situation where I might have to hit someone.

JasonStewart wrote:
Of course, there are other quite dangerous moves in kata but the knife hand occurs so frequently it is second nature.  Has anyone had any experience strking someone full force to the neck with knife hand?  What was the outcome?  Am I just being paranoid?

Plastic dummies only.

Marc
Marc's picture

JasonStewart wrote:

I'm worried that, if I ever was in an altercation, I would perform this manuever reflexively against an opponent that didn't warrent such a response? Of course, there are other quite dangerous moves in kata but the knife hand occurs so frequently it is second nature.

The answers above already stated that of course you want to make sure you had no other option than to use force against violence.

But if in the end the situation requires force, then basically, a second nature response is what you want to achieve by training.

To make sure that you only use your stop-it-there-and-then-response if the opponent actually did warrant it, try to incorporate the prelude stages into your training: Verbal (de-)escalation, (avoiding the) monkey dance, (backing off from) shoving, haymaker. - This way you can train to use your striking technique reflexively when it is actually required for your survival.

JasonStewart wrote:

Has anyone had any experience strking someone full force to the neck with knife hand?  What was the outcome?  Am I just being paranoid?

Luckily I've never been in a situation where intently or accidentally used it.

If you want to know about the effect of striking the neck, for a start you might want to read about the carotid sinus and the associated baroreflex on wikipedia.

You're not paranoid. It's a good thing to think about the options you have and their possible consequences in advance, so you won't have to when the situation arises.

Take care

Marc

Leigh Simms
Leigh Simms's picture

Tau wrote:

Leigh Simms wrote:

For me, using phyiscal force will only be required when I have exhausted all other options of ensuring the safety of me and my loved ones when confronted with immediate and unlawful violence from another person/people.

I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong here, but I would say that when it comes to legal ramifications it's less about the specific technique and more about applying the principle that you've stated here and being able to articulate that post-event

I think thats spot on Tau! 

Either way, it is not the technique used or the amount of force used that is the main consideration. The main consideration is if force is necessary and if the force used was reasonable given the individual circumstances. 

It maybe the case that pushing an attacking may fall over and hurt there back and unable to get to his feet. In that case I would suggest escaping is the best option and any extra attacks could be deemed excessive. Where as, you may strike the attacker in the neck and he continues to fight you back. It could take numerous strikes before the attacker is knocked out. 

Assuming in both the above scenarios all methods of escape were unavoidable and you escaped as soon as possible, the amount of force actually needed will vary from situation to situation and won't be the major factor. 

I am writing this off the cuff, so it maybe a bit wordy, but I hope it helps to clarify above points?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Leigh Simms wrote:
I think they key is to have a very high threshold for when you would decide to use physical force.

Oh, I like that! I like that a lot. I’m stealing that line off you Leigh. That’s a great way to express it!

All the best,

Iain

Th0mas
Th0mas's picture

Great thread.  

Not to take away from the general consensus and flow, but this classic YouTube clip gives a good indication of the effectiveness of a well placed knife hand strike

cheers

Tom

Mark Powell
Mark Powell's picture

Uhm speaking for myself:

I've always felt I'd rather be in court fighting for justice than in hospital fighting for my life.

The others are of course right; physically defending yourself should be a very last resort.

Worth considering how you would present your case to any interveiwing authorities as part of training rather than when distressed following an unpleasant incident.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Mark Powell wrote:
I've always felt I'd rather be in court fighting for justice than in hospital fighting for my life.

I get the sentiment, but we have to be careful we are not presenting a false choice i.e. prison or death. We can avoid both injury and legal problems with the right training.

Sometimes we hear things akin to “Better be judged by 12, than carried by 6” being used to dismiss the need for legal issues to be included in training. It’s also not just a matter of people being familiar with the law, but ensuring the habits instilled by training are in accordance with it.

My aim would be to avoid court altogether too. I want it to be so clear cut that the police and the CPS agree it was clearly self-defence and hence it ends right there. The combination of having a very high threshold for when you would decide to use physical force (thanks Leigh!), a methodology that focuses on ensuring safety (opposed to “winning”) and an understanding of the need to effectively communicate what happened after the event will help ensure it never even gets to court.

Mark Powell wrote:
Worth considering how you would present your case to any interveiwing authorities as part of training rather than when distressed following an unpleasant incident.

Could not agree more! It’s a self-defence skill that needs practised. Including how you would explain the event to the authorities should be a part of scenario training.

In addition to knowledge of the law, knowledge of the how the interview process will go is also important. The below is part of dojo materials and was put together a few years ago following the gathering of advice from various sources including police officers, police trainers and magistrates.

A basic list of considerations:

1 - Report the incident to the police; or, if appropriate, leave your contact details with a trusted person (i.e. manager or door staff) so you can be contacted (and to make it clear you have nothing to hide) should the aggressor make a complaint and the police make enquiries.

2 - If you should be arrested ask the officers to make a note in their note books that you have acted in self-defense, and are happy to cooperate, but you will not discuss the incident without first speaking to a solicitor.

3 - When being booked into the custody suite repeat the above and ask it be written into the custody record.

4 -  As soon as possible, ask to speak to a solicitor (your own or the duty solicitor). Ask for writing materials in order to make notes for your solicitor. You may then use these notes for your own reference as well at a later date (just as the police will use their own notes). Write out everything that happened, including dates and times, names of witnesses, names and numbers of involved police officers, etc. Keep these notes with you and only pass them onto your solicitor. The police would be committing an offence and breaching legal privilege if they attempted to take them from you.

5 - If you have any injuries (no matter how minor) insist that the police take pictures of them and ask to see a doctor or nurse so that the injuries are recorded.

6 - Be aware that it is very likely that it will be quite some time before you are interviewed. In the intervening time, it is important not to discuss events with anyone; even as part of banter / general conversation. Do not let yourself be talked into being interviewed / released from custody sooner if you consent to being interviewed without a solicitor present.

7 - When you have your private meeting with your solicitor, you will tell them your version of events. The solicitor will then explain how the interview process will work and will advise you on the best way forward. If you are unhappy with the advice given, you do not have to follow it and you can also ask for another solicitor.

8 - During the interview be very mindful of police officers paraphrasing what you said hence potentially misrepresenting it. The temptation can be to go with the flow, but make sure that your version of events is accurately recorded at this stage as later clarification may be seen as “changing your story”. Do not sign or agree to anything unless it exactly matches your version of events.

9 - Once the interview is concluded, the police will then consult with the Crown Prosecution Service who will make a decision on how to proceed with the case. This can happen while you are still in custody or at a later date.

Good topic this!

All the best,

Iain

Tau
Tau's picture

Iain is summarising an excellent article that was published in Jissen magazine. In my oppinion it was the best article from any issue and I've summarised it myself for my students. It's not a massive tome and is definately worth reading in full.

Issue 5, page 14. You must be able to download it from somewhere.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Tau wrote:
Iain is summarising an excellent article that was published in Jissen magazine.

The information provided by the police office for that article – who would prefer not to give their full name – was very useful. I also discussed it with him personally, a police trainer (specialising in legalities) and a magistrate … so there are one or two tweaks based on what the others consulted said. However, they were all pretty much in agreement as to what the procedure should be and the mistakes they have seen.

Tau wrote:
Issue 5, page 14. You must be able to download it from somewhere.

You can get it from the website :-) http://www.jissenmag.com/

That website is soon to be no more so people should act quick!

All the best,

Iain

css1971
css1971's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:

A basic list of considerations:

1 - Report the incident to the police ...

This is great advice. It's exactly the kind of thing which goes totally out of your mind when you're flustered.