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css1971
css1971's picture
Lots of Sanchin

I'm not sure how much Sanchin you can take, but there is lots of it here from different Kung Fu styles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvw9-SIurKE&index=1&list=PL82BB14FF1E800689

I was told there's no bunkai for Sanchin... Not so sure about that.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

I tend to see Sanchin as more of a way of developing mechanics and power for specific applications found in other kata, but then again, I'm not a Goju-Ryu guy. My friend, Ryan Parker, made this video of some simple applications for Sanchin, though, which I like:

css1971
css1971's picture

I like Ryan Parker's videos, his applications are always interesting. He's taking the Goju Miyagi version of Sanchin here.  In the video playlist are versions from White Crane "San Zhin" that Sanchin came from. The movements are broadly similar but with different emphasis, open handed to start with. The Chinese versions remind me of a clinch situation like the top left of the pic:

clinch

It also looks like San Zhin is designed to be performed against another person who is also practicing it.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Opening or closing the hands only matters if you insist that they must remain open or closed, in my opinion. There are certainly differences between the Chinese and Okinawan approaches to Sanchin, of course, but I think the open hands vs. closed fists is the most insignificant difference. As I said, I tend to believe that Sanchin wasn't meant to be a catalog of directly useable techniques, but rather a training system for developing skills and mechanics that will improve your understanding and ability to apply the techniques of the system, which are found in other kata. In that respect, I can kind of see how you think the kata looks like it's meant to be performed against another person with the same material--if it's primarily a supplemental training device, that would make perfect sense. Even so, the kata uses movements that have applications, so the kata has applications. If you want to see some of the principles in action, all you have to do is take a look at Taira Masaji Sensei's material.

Also, I'll see your medieval treatise and raise you a Chinese one--an image from the Bubishi found in Mabuni Kenwa's book, Seipai no Kenkyu ;)

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Wastelander wrote:
I tend to see Sanchin as more of a way of developing mechanics and power for specific applications found in other kata,

Kris Wilder has a couple of great lines that summarise his very similar viewpoint. These are from memory so apologies to Kris If I’ve not got them word for word:

“Don’t look for bunkai in Sanchin; look for Sanchin in your bunkai.”

And

"Sanchin is like the rain. If the techniques of the other kata are the trees, Sanchin is the rain that nourishes them all."

That’s not to say Sanchin does not have applications, just that, in the eyes of some, its primary purpose is one of body mechanics.

I’m not a Goju guy either, so I’ll leave the nuances of that discussion to those that know better :-)

All the best,

Iain

css1971
css1971's picture

As I said, I tend to believe that Sanchin wasn't meant to be a catalog of directly useable techniques, but rather a training system for developing skills and mechanics that will improve your understanding and ability to apply the techniques of the system, which are found in other kata.

ok basically I agree. I've been watching more of the Chinese San Zhan (it's like one of those tunes you can't get out of your head) and my thesis is as follows:

I've come to the conclusion that Sanchin wasn't originally a kata at all. It was simply a form of sanbon kumite used for grappling techniques.

The reason you don't look for applications in it is because you were expected to already know which applications you were training as part of the kumite.

The reason the various (but not all) versions emphasise tension while performing it, is, it would normally have been performed with and against a partner, and the partner would have provided opposing force and tension while training in a group. Obviously when training it alone that opposing force and tension is missing and so you have or had to apply it yourself. This practice has evolved into the Sanchin of today.

More over, there are many different forms of San Zhan, many of them are very similar, but a fairly broad range which while still using the 3 steps use entirely different sets of movements. It's as if San Zhan is quite literally the generic term sanbon kumite. So maybe you would just train San Zhan, not the San Zhan. I'm also sure the "3 battles" name refers quite simply to the 3 steps and not some mystical mind, body and spirit thing.

Dillon
Dillon's picture

When I started to read this thread, I immediatly thought of Kris' words on the topic. You've beaten me to it, this time.