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Wastelander
Wastelander's picture
Naihanchi Shodan vs "Hockey Punches"

Hello, everyone!
I know that the last time I used the phrase "hockey punches," I taught some people a new phrase, but it's back! :P

This time, we're taking a look at using the opening of Naihanchi Shodan to deal with someone grabbing you to give themselves a handhold to control, and an index to strike, both in the open and against a wall.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

I like! I like it lots!

1) I like that the kata movements are applied in a free-flowing way and not in a “formal” way. “The right kind of ugly” is the phrase I use.

2) I like the quick taking of the angle. It’s consistent with the “sideways” nature of the kata and complies with my two main rules on angles:

A) Keep the enemy in front of you, but don’t be in front of your enemy.

B) Move toward what you know (in this case the gripping arm), and away from what you don’t know (in this case the uncontrolled punching arm).

3) I like the use of environment (the wall). It’s a rarely discussed element, but as Rory Miller so succinctly puts it, “fights happen in places”. It also fits with Itoman’s great definition of karate:

“Karate is a martial art that completely and freely uses the entire body, objects to hand, and a person’s surroundings.”

Thanks for sharing here.

All the best,

Iain

Mark B
Mark B's picture

Some nice ideas. I don't personally like to add on the simulated stamp towards the face when the opponent is on the floor. Not a good habit to form in my opinion, same with the knee strike into a prone opponent, actually compressing the face between the knee and a hard surface is a little uneccessary on an opponent who once again was in a prone position. These are the type of techniques which are a bit of an issue for me. I don't teach them. Regards.

Les Bubka
Les Bubka's picture

Very nice, smooth and effective, 

As so many people is sharing great stuff about Naihanch/tekki I might start learning it :)

Kind regards

Les

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Mark B wrote:
I don't personally like to add on the simulated stamp towards the face when the opponent is on the floor ... same with the knee strike into a prone opponent.

I don’t practise them, but I do teach them. There are stamps to prone enemies within kata, but I think we need to mark the distinction between historical learning and modern-day legalities. When teaching my own Naihanchi drills I teach it first with the “kata as is” head stomp … and I then encourage a switch to a stamp to the thighs if appropriate. Such a stamp prevents standing and chase and is “safer” legally. However, I don’t fully discount the head stomp. As a 210-pound male, I am very confident my stamp to the thighs will do the job and keep me on the right side of the law. But as one seminar attendee one remarked, “I’m telling my 15-year-old daughter to kick them in the head if they are in the position” to which I remarked, “I’d tell my own daughter the same.” It could be a more effective way to prevent standing and chase for them. The skull is also very strong and someone of very light stature is less likely to cause extreme damage that a big old lump like me could do. The law (judge and jury) is more likely to look on it more sympathetically too.

So, while I don’t personally practise them - because I don’t want it to be the “habit” for me personally - I don't entirely rule then out because they could be a better option for others in certian circumstances.

All the best,

Iain

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Thanks for the input, everyone! With regard to the stomps and knees to a downed opponent, they are historical and, as Iain suggests, there are certain situations where such techniques are appropriate, and of course there are situations where they are not. Within our training, such things are included as part of our legal discussions. There is a certain degree of threat assessment that must be incorporated into training, not just for these techniques, but for pretty much all techniques.

Mark B
Mark B's picture

It's my view that if we demonstrate on camera something like stamping on the head of a downed opponent then it's best practice to add the information you list - legal discussions etc. Threat assessment is a theoretical concept. Apart from pre engagement the assessment stops once it goes physical. At that point any assessment should stop - you can't fight by numbers. The issue of stamping on heads is one of acceptable force - where as a right cross at punching range or elbow/headbutt at very close range might be considered acceptable means of self defence under certain self defence circumstances the stamp to the head can never really be justified apart from the one reason Iain did mention, and I also have a 15 year old daughter. Those issues ( when is it appropriate and why) are an entirely different conversation. Regards

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Mark B wrote:
It's my view that if we demonstrate on camera something like stamping on the head of a downed opponent then it's best practice to add the information you list - legal discussions etc.

The law always applies and we can’t include it in every clip. They are always going to be incomplete in some way. Maybe the simple addition of the words, “if legally appropriate” would be the caveat needed? The fact that law is not mentioned seems to have been an issue for a few people looking at the comments in various places.

Mark B wrote:
The issue of stamping on heads is one of acceptable force - where as a right cross at punching range or elbow/headbutt at very close range might be considered acceptable means of self defence under certain self defence circumstances the stamp to the head can never really be justified apart from the one reason Iain did mention, and I also have a 15 year old daughter.

Of course, the law does not prescribe techniques. It is entirely possible that in one set of circumstances a push will see you on the wrong side of the law, whereas lethal force would be entirely legal in another set of circumstances.

I’d personally not assert that stamping could not be legally justified.  Here in England, it is Section 76 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 that defines what is acceptable and what is not. What I would say it that as a 210 lbs, lifelong martial artists, I would generally favour stamping on the legs rather than the head … but if I was protecting my partner and child from a group, I’d have no qualms about kicking a downed person in the head, and I feel the law would support me in that action.

The cross and the elbow can be fatal too of course. And the headbutt is listed right alongside kicking (animal attack and acid attack too) in the sentencing guidelines for assault which gives some idea of how it is perceived by law makers.

I feel the key is to have a high threshold for violence (don’t do it unless truly necessary) and to fight to the objective (seek safety). When you do those, it is hard to find yourself on the wrong wide of the law because the force used will always be both necessary and reasonable as defined by law.

Back to the video, if the stamp and “wall knee” where to one of a group of home invaders then the they would be both tactically sound and legally appropriate. Likewise, if it was a terrorist on a stabbing spree. If it was to a very drunk, uncoordinated but aggressive family member at wedding, then it would be gross overkill that would undoubtedly see us on ther wrong side of the law. It’s the context, not the method, that determines legality.

Personally, I would not want to the stamp to the head to be the go to move for me. So, I’d not want to instil it as the “habit” (the leg stamp is the preface and hence the most practised). But I’d not exclude it from practise for everyone. I’d also want to discuss legalities in a way that considers all the various factors. If people wrongly assume that a given technique is “default legal” then they could get in to legal trouble. If people wrongly assume a given method is always “default illegal” then they could put themselves at the risk of greater harm.

Totally agree that stamping and kneeing a floored enemy brings these issues into sharp focus. I also agree that we need to be sure to have the required discussion around them (with the required nuance). And while a short video clip focused on a kata application may not be the time to launch into that, the comments on facebook and here would suggest a “legal caveat”, that would point the necessity of that discussion, could avoid be a good idea. Something for us video makers to keep in mind.

All the best,

Iain

Mark B
Mark B's picture

Hi Iain. I'd agree with that. As one of those people who share recordings of my own work this actually got me thinking about my own stuff, and what I remember, or forget to mention. Obviously in the dojo these things get discussed , but it easy to throw a 2 or 3 minute video together and focus on the subject of the application only, forgetting that in many dojo these things are still not discussed. I need to keep this in mind for my own stuff too. Clearly a punch to the head can, and has been fatal. I think the thing is the perception of the technique used. It may be considered acceptable to use punches in self defence, even if it has tragic circumstances, whereas the perception of a stamp is almost always considered over the top. Anyway, that's a different discussion for another day. Regards

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Mark B wrote:
As one of those people who share recordings of my own work this actually got me thinking about my own stuff, and what I remember, or forget to mention. Obviously in the dojo these things get discussed, but it easy to throw a 2 or 3 minute video together and focus on the subject of the application only, forgetting that in many dojo these things are still not discussed.

Can totally relate to that! People then watch with their own set of assumptions and that can lead to radical misunderstandings of what is being shown. Despite my best efforts, this frequently happens with my videos too.

Mark B wrote:
Clearly a punch to the head can, and has been fatal. I think the thing is the perception of the technique used. It may be considered acceptable to use punches in self-defence, even if it has tragic circumstances, whereas the perception of a stamp is almost always considered over the top.

A very valid point. Tim Smith did a great set of podcasts on such perceptions:

http://www.kungfupodcasts.com/index.php?route=news/article&news_id=35

All the best,

Iain

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Yeah, it's tough to put out 3-4 minute videos and cover EVERY aspect and eventuality, unfortunately. Legal considerations, adjustments for opponent characteristics, adjustments for personal weaknesses, variations on techniques, alternative entries or endings, etc. There is only so much time to cover things, so it's easy to forget some of them, or decide to pass over some of them. As Iain says, it's not something where a blanket statement really applies, except for "as legally appropriate," which is true for all techniques. In the end, it's still going to be the responsibility of the individual to educate themselves on the laws in their area, and what is legally appropriate.

sarflondonboydo...
sarflondonboydonewell's picture

Thank you for posting; getting off the line of fire is good sense against this type of assault; the outside angle is essential unless one strikes into an attacker  ala SPEAR or similar  technique or is a  good ducker as there is a high probability it will be a head punch.

Using the attackers grabbing momentum and helping it along ;perfect. Against the grip pulling in  one hasn’t got the forward momentum so in my view a different response is needed.

On a passing observation on what is known as one punch manslaughter it is not normally the punch that kills; it’s the hitting of the head with the floor.  A punch to the head is mostly an open gambit; where as the stamp on the head is normally the finisher. Very very tragically it is not uncommon in murder cases were victims have been stamped on to have imprints of the attacker’s trainer/shoe on the body/face.

This is a very interesting legal article around the subject of one punch manslaughter

http://www.barristermagazine.com/barrister/archivedsite/articles/issue34...

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Wastelander wrote:
Yeah, it's tough to put out 3-4 minute videos and cover EVERY aspect and eventuality, unfortunately.

I’d say it’s impossible. I do try to pre-empt what the questions could be and pre-emptively address them in my videos, but that’s often difficult especially if it’s live film of me talking to a group who fully understand the “big picture” and don’t need me to labour the point. Therefore, most of my videos are accompanied by text along the lines of, “This is a short clip from a much wider set of instruction and therefore this video can’t cover how what is shown fits within the wider methodology”. Many people take no notice and wrongly assume that their existing expectations apply, but at least I laid down that caveat.

We can’t include everything in one video. So people have to accept it is incomplete otherwise the alternative is to share nothing.

Wastelander wrote:
In the end, it's still going to be the responsibility of the individual to educate themselves on the laws in their area, and what is legally appropriate.

Totally. And that should be a part of their regular instruction, training and discussion. Sadly, it’s often not, but it should be.

Thanks once again for posting the video!

All the best,

Iain

PS You notice that “hockey punches” hasn’t be questioned this time though … that’s progress :-)

Dod
Dod's picture
Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

Haha, yes, I do suppose that it would qualify for "impossible" rather than "tough," Iain--I just have a tendency to avoid absolutes :P.

With regard to the deadliness of a single punch, sarflondonboydonewell, yes, it is definitely known that the secondary impact from falling is the deadly part, typically. I actually find that karate's penchant for grabbing and striking is helpful in this regard, because we can keep the opponent's head from hitting the floor if need be, although developing that can be tricky.

As far as hockey players using yama-tsuki, Dod, I would say a lot of them also use juji-uke, since they punch over their grabbing hand more closely sometimes ;)