Origin of Shiho Kosokun?

Hi Lee, great question as I've wondered the same thing, it would be great to find out any histroy about this kata.

I just checked you tube for a video of Kosokun Dai, having never seen it performed, and from a shotokan practitioners eye it looks remarkably similar to kankudai.

I would say the major changes are in the enbusen, everything else looks to be shared by Kankudai.

cheers

Tom Runge

Th0mas wrote:

I just checked you tube for a video of Kosokun Dai, having never seen it performed, and from a shotokan practitioners eye it looks remarkably similar to kankudai.

Kosokun-Dai and Kanku-Dai do have much in common. However, the original question was on Shiho Kosokun (as opposed to Kosokun-Dai) so I thought I’d embed a video of that one too so people can contrast the two.

I do find Shiho Kosokun an interesting form and it would be good to know a little more about its background and development. Does anyone here know who created it?

I did a google search (“Origins of Shiho Kosokun”) and this thread was number 1; which suggests there’s not much information out there. It would be great if we could drawn on the collective knowledge pool and add a little information to the world wide web. Any idea who created it? When? Theories on why?

All the best,

Iain

Well, it looks awfully similar to the other Kanku/Kosokun katas but with a changed embusen. Logically that'd mean they are variants of each other. From whom and when is the question though, right?

Quick bit of internet research from various shukokai sites gleaned these bits....

"KOSOKUN-SHIHO (four directional kushanku)
Kosokun or kushanku -shiho is a kata created and developed from the original form kushanku which itself is a very old kata handed down from either tode sakugawa or chatan yara both very early okinawan karate pioneers. The kata was apparently developed from fighting techniques and principles that sakugawa learned from a chinese military attache named kusanku from which the kata was named .Kosokun -shiho itself is a development of the original kushanku created by either itosu or kenwa mabuni (shito ryu creator) and is practised almost exclusively by shukokai/shito styles."

"This version was also developed by Master Itosu. Shiho means "4 directions" in Japanese and is indicative of the directions of movement in this kata. It has fewer steps than Kusanku-dai."

"Kosokun 4 ways. Mabuni variation"

A Belgian Shito site, in their kata list, had it under the Itosu section with the other Kosokun katas.

Here's Google's translation of a Slovakian (I think) shito site... had to re-type this myself couldn't copy and paste ....

"The author is Master Kenwa Mabuni (1889 - 1952), founder of shito-ryu direction. Kata Shiho Koskun was about 200 years after the original kata Kushanku. Master mabuni created this kata probably only for educational reasons."

I guess all this shows is that there's no consensus even amongst the Shito schools of where this one came from as it's listed as being developed either by Itosu or Mabuni.

Hi gents,

I've never really researched that kata but I thought it was compiled by Mabuni Kenwa as well as other kata.

I've done a quick web research an found a really short paragraph here: http://karatekata.de/Karatekata_ShitoRyu.htm#KosokunShiho

Don't know how reliable these informations are, so no guarantee on that. But I hope that helps.

Regards Holger

Edit: According to R.Sakagami the source of Shiho Kushanku/Kosokun is Itosu Anko.

Jon Sloan wrote:

I guess all this shows is that there's no consensus even amongst the Shito schools of where this one came from as it's listed as being developed either by Itosu or Mabuni.

That sums it up for me!

Just a thing I picked up on, It seems that the embusen may have been changed to accomodate a smaller space of practise. The kata seems to go back and forth down a centre line much more than Kanku/Kusanku which has a larger embusen.

I haven't practiced this kata in over 15 years! However back in my Shito ryu days im fairly sure I was told it was a kata developed by Mabuni Sensei for Shito Ryu students as a variation of Kosokun Dai kata.

Im not aware of any other Ryu that practice it, but I have never considered that before this thread.

I have no idea about why it was created, or indeed the differences it works and at the time just felt it was redundant anyhow, it seemed as complicated as Kosokun Dai just different embusen, very little technical differences.

Here's our Seito Matsumura version:

Jon Sloan wrote:

I guess all this shows is that there's no consensus even amongst the Shito schools of where this one came from as it's listed as being developed either by Itosu or Mabuni.

Great post that Jon and as you point out there does seem to be no uniform view on this. Personally I would think that, seeing as the kata is exclusive to Shito-Ryu and its derivatives, that Mabuni would be the more likely option. If it had been Itosu, we maybe would have expected to see it in other styles too?

Iain

Iain Abernethy wrote:

.. However, the original question was on Shiho Kosokun (as opposed to Kosokun-Dai) so I thought I’d embed a video of that one too so people can contrast the two....

 woops sorry, I posted the wrong you tube video - although my comments were referring to  Shiho Kosokun.

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Great post that Jon and as you point out there does seem to be no uniform view on this. Personally I would think that, seeing as the kata is exclusive to Shito-Ryu and its derivatives, that Mabuni would be the more likely option. If it had been Itosu, we maybe would have expected to see it in other styles too?

Iain

As usual, that makes absolute sense Iain. Is this true of all kata seen only in Shito styles? I don't know. Just putting the thought out there. It seems that Mabuni was a collector, an enthusiast or presever of kata variations.

It is indeed more likely that he developed the shiho variation based on his own skills but there's a slim chance that it was another one he catalogued from elsewhere. Though I'd definitely lean toward the idea of him developing it.

Hey, I know this post is about 6.5 months old but I just saw it yesterday and joined the forum.

I have an answer for you directly from my Karate Instructor the late Soke Kenzo Mabuni.

According to Soke Mabuni, his father, when he first moved to Japan, rented a dojo space from Kosei Kokuba, the uncle of Shogo Kuniba, and later adopted father.  The dojo was very small, but layed out according to the traditional dojo layout, with the Shomen/Kamiza to the north.  The setup was much wider east to west, with the north to south actually being very, very short.  So in order to practice Kosokun Dai, a row of students had to turn away from the dojo front, either east or west, while other rows moved out of the way.  After some time, Ryusui Mabuni created Shiho Kosokun, a variant of Kosokun Dai so that the students would not have to turn away from the front to practice the kata.  If you know the kata, or watch it, you can see that it moves left and right mostly.

Ryusui Mabuni eventually moved to a much larger dojo, where space was not an issue, and continued using Shiho Kosokun along with Kosokun Dai.

Dale Parker wrote:

I have an answer for you directly from my Karate Instructor the late Soke Kenzo Mabuni.

According to Soke Mabuni, his father, when he first moved to Japan, rented a dojo space from Kosei Kokuba, the uncle of Shogo Kuniba, and later adopted father.  The dojo was very small, but layed out according to the traditional dojo layout, with the Shomen/Kamiza to the north.  The setup was much wider east to west, with the north to south actually being very, very short.  So in order to practice Kosokun Dai, a row of students had to turn away from the dojo front, either east or west, while other rows moved out of the way.  After some time, Ryusui Mabuni created Shiho Kosokun, a variant of Kosokun Dai so that the students would not have to turn away from the front to practice the kata.  If you know the kata, or watch it, you can see that it moves left and right mostly.

Ryusui Mabuni eventually moved to a much larger dojo, where space was not an issue, and continued using Shiho Kosokun along with Kosokun Dai.

Welcome Dale and thanks for this great first post! Brilliant!

All the best,

Iain

Great post Dale! Just goes to show how much information is out there that can offer great insight, no matter how small the detail. Especially if your instructor was the late Soke Kenzo Mabuni!

Thanks for sharing

Lee