Pinans 1 - 5 or Pinan Dai

Hi,

The reason I like the seperate Pinan Kata is that it is easier to teach. I could teach my students one longer kata and then split it up into seperate chunks for each grade (but whats the point when they are already in 5 parts).

Secondly I think that Kanku, Bassai, Jion & Gankaku are pretty much the 5 Heian Kata anyway. Maybe a culmination of those four would be more interesting to do..... In general most of the Heian kata can be seen in Kanku Dai anyway.

If it is for your own practise then I don't see any problem with it. Infact I often flick between the heian kata sequences all the time and create random kata now and again just to do something more fun and different.  

Also I know a lot of the techniques are repeated but that isnt necessarily a bad thing. One certain motion (e.g. Shuto Uke) can have many different applications therefore it does appear a lot and I think the reason it appears a lot is to remind us and give us time to imagine different applications in our head when training. So I don't think condensing the Pinan Kata would be that usefull because of that reason.

Hope my ramblings can make some kind of sense 

Hi gents,

Kase Sensei created the Heian-Oyo-Gata. It is an amalgamation of the five Heian Kata and can be seen here:

Regards Holger

My impression has always been that Itosu created the Pinan katas by breaking down and separating many of the techniques of Kushanku originally (possibly with some influence from other higher level kata as well).  If this is true, then a "Pinan Dai" kata would likely look suspiciously like Kushanku...

I think the emphasis on repetition is very helpful in learning these early kata and helps build and recognise the techniques when you see them later in kata that have much less internal repetition.

Black Tiger wrote:

Iain said quite a lot of the techniques were duplicated within the kata

If you mean within the Pinan kata themselves then I’ve never said that. I see a very logical and structured progression within the Pinan series and don’t see any needless duplication.

If you mean throughout all kata (i.e. Kushanku, Bassai, Chinto, etc, etc, etc), then yes because the kata as a whole were not designed to be used collectively, and are stand alone entities, then there is some duplication.

Black Tiger wrote:

So why not "create" Pinan Dai kata - a Kata that takes all the techniques within the Pinans

Firstly, I‘d say there was no need as I can’t see what the process would add? Secondly, you’d lose the order of the techniques within the Pinan series through such a rearrangement and I think that order is critical to understanding the progression within the Pinans (see my “The Pinan / Heian Series: The Complete Fighting System” DVDs for my thoughts on that). Thirdly, to keep the vital order within the series, all you’d effectively be doing is the Pinans as they already are without a break. I’m not sure that really constitutes a new kata.

One thing that could be interesting is to draw out the various themes from within the kata and produce separate kata for them? Not sure how easy that could be, but instead of going for a general progression (which is definitely the best way to go) you could make a kata for the throws within the Pinans, or the locks, or the limb-control element etc. I think that would be a interesting exercise, but I would maintain that the kata as they are would be hard to improve upon.

All the best,

Iain

Apologies Iain if I misinterpreted your narative, I know you advised to demonstrate the techniques of the End of Shodan in Nidan as they were repeated in that kata.

With regards to keeping the Pinans in the same sequence then why do we learn Pinan Nidan BEFORE Pinan Shodan, It may look easier but so does Naihanchi Kata.

The techniques within Pinan Nidan are just as technical as Shodan if not more technical.

I think the Pinans are treated with the misconception that they are just training Kata. I watched the DVD again with my best friend, my Old Tang Soo Do Instructor (and now my most senior student) and he was annoyed at his Instructor and his instructor's Instructor etc. that they witheld that information from him. I advised that they are from a generation of Martial Artists who never questioned their Instructor but just did it.

This is why martial arts is a lifetime's study.

So if I wanted to learn/practice a "Bridged" version of the Pinans for personal use, I should just learn/practice Kushanku/Kanku Dai?

Thanks

ky0han wrote:

Hi gents,

Kase Sensei created the Heian-Oyo-Gata. It is an amalgamation of the five Heian Kata and can be seen here:

Regards Holger

Nice Kata, seems to encompass everything within the Pinan/Heian katas without turning it into a different kata!

Black Tiger wrote:

Apologies Iain if I misinterpreted your narative, I know you advised to demonstrate the techniques of the End of Shodan in Nidan as they were repeated in that kata.

That was a matter to keeping the Bunkai-Jutsu 1 program down to a manageable time (we still hit the 2 hour mark) while ensuring there were applications for every motion. Those who have trained with me personally or who have seen more of my material should understand the progression that I see.

Black Tiger wrote:

With regards to keeping the Pinans in the same sequence then why do we learn Pinan Nidan BEFORE Pinan Shodan

In my dojo, Pinan Shodan is taught first. I think the order is based on the bunkai, but because the bunkai is ignored people have reordered them to reflect the difficulty of solo form alone. I explain this in more detail in this article: http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/there-nothing-peaceful-about-pinans

The key part would be the stuff around this paragraph:

“Although most karateka have abandoned the traditional teaching order of the Pinans – Pinan Nidan being commonly taught first in Wado-Ryu and Shito-Ryu and the names being switched in Shotokan (such that Pinan Nidan became Heian Shodan) – there is a good reason to stick to the traditional order as the bunkai progresses in a logical order and teaches the required physical skills in a logical way.”

All the best,

Iain

Hi Nomad, this is a theory that I was also taught, although if you really look at the sequences in Kushanku, then at the sequences in each of the Pinan Kata it seems you will only find about 4 or 5 Kushanku sequences or postures within the Pinan Kata, and of those sequences they are only present in Pinan Shodan and Pinan Yodan, I have to say that I have found nothing of Pinans Nidan, Sandan or Godan present in Kushanku.

Even the directional format of Kushanku, although it feels a little like the way you move while performing any of the Pinan Kata, it is actually only similar for the first 5 directions or so.

Unless i'm totally missing something it seems to me that the Pinan Katas were based only in part on Kushanku if at all, maybe Iain can clarify?

Steve ;o)

Hi Black Tiger

I think it does very much depend on what you are trying to 'get' from the Kata.  Iain and I both have our own approaches to the Heians, but we both use the sequential order of the Kata to teach and reinforce different combative principles and techniques, and you would not catch either of us describing the Kata as non combative.  That said, if you have no compulsion to train the Heian Kata (for example they are not part of your syllabus) there is no reason why those same lessons could not be imparted via different means.

I would not practice Kanku Dai/Kushanku as an alternative to the Heians/Pinans.  It is a different fighting system.  There are things in common, entire sequences, but there are also larger parts and techniques that do not overlap.  The connections are possibly the result of personal practice and adaptation as I discuss in my article on Personal Kata raining - taking the Red Pill on the Practical Karate website.  The two are related but one does not really replace the other unless you adapt your personal training and choose which one to adopt as your own fighting platform.

If you do want something shorter, just pick individual combinations and train them according to perceived weaknesses. :)

Regards

J