Protective Gear

You could look into bogu kumite gear, I bought mine from ryute supplies.

I have't used the helmet that much but it'll definitely take a beating, my biggest concern would be the heaviness of it whipping back and messing up your neck. It's really sturdy stuff. There is not much protection on it anywhere but the face grate though, which might endanger the other person if you are doing open hand stuff with no gloves.

I also have the pvc chest protector on this page, I would reccomend the other one over it, the pvc one is a solid piece and is awkward to wear, whereas the bogu gear is not.

Hey Zach.

Thanks for the reply.  I took a look at the gear on the website you provided; a bit out of my price range (I'm a student trying to start a club on a limited budget).  For chest protectors, I'm probably going to opt for baseball catcher's or umpire's protectors, seeing as though those things are meant to take a pounding.

Although if I did have the money, those Bogu masks would work great; I know a lot of Okinawan martial art schools use them for bogu kumite.  I've also heard that you still take a wicked pounding wearing those :)

I find, ironically, that most martial arts protective equipment doesn't work well for heard impact.  On the flip side, things like hocket helmets work but ened to have lots of foam added to critical areas where hands may be cut.  of course, that's where the foam I got from work comes in...

Either way, I'm still going to continue my search.

-Bri

I found this gear does the job for 'heavy' contact work, and very reasonabily priced and well made -

head - http://www.blitzsport.com/Grilled-Head-Guard?sc=9&category=45

hands - http://www.blitzsport.com/Firepower-MMA-Gloves?sc=9&category=42

legs - http://www.blitzsport.com/Firepower-PU-Shin-Instep?sc=9&category=46

body - http://www.blitzsport.com/Full-Contact-Body-Armour?sc=9&category=33

decent mouth guard, groin cup and your done.

Hey shoshinkanuk, thanks for the reply.

Interestingly enough, the headgear you provided a link to seems exactly like the kind of headgear I tried earlier that gave us headaches.  Were the ones you used capable of taking that much force without causing head damage?

The ones I used are here: http://www.zeepksports.com/303209.html

The ones i tried could have just been knock-offs, but since then I've shied away from plastic face cages and that type of headgear, but I may be wrong.

They certainly look similair,

You can take a fair whack with the ones I suggest, especially if the person hitting is in the mma gloves - but not full contact for most.

the body armour is good, full whacks no problems really - still feels it mind.

I found the gear I suggested a good compromise between protection and being able to function, it's a tough balance to find. Perhaps stepping up to medium weight boxing gloves would help as opposed to mma gloves?

At the end of the day a headguard can only do so much I think.

Most are there to prevent soft tissue damage (cuts, bloody noses etc) but can't do much to stop your brain sloshing about inside your bonce. :)

The only true way of preventing that would be something like a bullet man suit where the helmet is attached to the shoulders so the head inside isn't jolted around as much.

As soon as the head is free to flop about it you'll get headaches and such from heavy impact IMHO.

I'm with PASmith on this one. We use a BOB XL, Thai pads and focus mitts to practice head shots on and we train head (and neck) shots much more so than any other strike. Having a partner wear a helmet, no matter how good, cannot possibly be done with the same force. We do practice head shots on each other though, with the intent dialled up and the force dialled right down. Wearing a helmet would just mean it was possible to not dial down the force quite so much.

Does anyone know of a supplier (preferably in the UK) of Bullet Man-style gear? It'd be great to be able to bridge the gap between BOB and a non-compliant partner.

From what I've seen Lee the bullet men suits seems to be fairly jerry-rigged jobs rather than mass produced?

I might be wrong but I think the initial incarnations were mostly american football padding, bike helmets and LOADS of duct tape!

You guys have been great!  Thanks for all the feedback!

I was looking into things like the bulletman helmets; I'm wondering if their size reduces the realism of the training because of a stationary head?  Then again, as you guys mentioned (I'm paraphrasing this), it's a compromise between protection for full-power and little protection for light contact.

Like I said before, I was told hockey equipment would to the trick because of the impact absorbption level as well as the realistic size.  If I added a few layers of foam and taped that on, I wonder if I'd get the same level of protection as a bulletman helmet while also getting some freedom of movement?

-Bri

I have to laugh,

I've never been in a street fight where I was allowed time to put on all my protective sparring gear to the fact I DON'T know how it "feels" to hit someone for real.

In Kyokushin, Ashihara, Enshin, Shorin Ryu, Ueichi Ryu and other Okinawan Ryu and other styles only a Groin guard and Gum shield are your only protective gear. I notice on the BCKA there is a "photo" of "Kyokushin kumite" not the basic EKA/WKA/WKF/WUKO tippy tappy bouncy bouncy one strike and stop stuff that normally goes on?

There's been a few discussions on the previous Forum on levels of sparring but I can't understand why wear protective equipment for non and semi contact when the "MEN" and "WOMEN" of Knockdown Karate don't wear any?

 OSU!!!!

Black Tiger, I don't think anyone's asking about sparring equipment here. For myself I'm interested in protective gear for use in self-protection training, not sport karate. We practice chin jabs, power slaps, tiger claws and forearm strikes to the neck, etc, none of which we can safely do full on against a training partner without adequate protection.

Black Tiger wrote:

In Kyokushin, Ashihara, Enshin, Shorin Ryu, Ueichi Ryu and other Okinawan Ryu and other styles only a Groin guard and Gum shield are your only protective gear.

There's been a few discussions on the previous Forum on levels of sparring but I can't understand why wear protective equipment for non and semi contact when the "MEN" and "WOMEN" of Knockdown Karate don't wear any.

Not strictly accurate.  In tournaments we have no pads (Enshin) but in training I don't care if they wear a mailshirt and full plate armour.  (OK - Just kidding)

We wear pads to save injuries to ourselves and our training partners and that makes perfect sense to me.  Maybe I'm getting soft ...

Gary

Black Tiger wrote:

There's been a few discussions on the previous Forum on levels of sparring but I can't understand why wear protective equipment for non and semi contact when the "MEN" and "WOMEN" of Knockdown Karate don't wear any?

Well for a start Knockdown rules don’t allow headshots. If they did, I’m sure that as tough as they are, they would use some protective equipment rather than permit full force bare-fisted blows to the head. However, that’s a matter for those who organise and compete in points karate and the ins and outs of that are not really covered on this forum which tends to concentrate on other areas.

Black Tiger wrote:

I have to laugh, I've never been in a street fight where I was allowed time to put on all my protective sparring gear to the fact I DON'T know how it "feels" to hit someone for real.

The points about not having protective equipment in a fight and how hitting people in protective equipment is different to hitting them for real are fair enough. But what’s the alternative? In real situations people shoot and stab each other too. Do I need to stab all my students so they know what it feels like? Should we use real blades with no protective equipment and no limits on what they can do? That’s how it is in reality … but if we did that in training we’d be killing people on a regular basis. So we make compromises in the name of safety. Therefore the best we can hope for is “realistic” it is never “real” though.

Back to striking: We all know that headshots are the fights stoppers and hence they need to be included in training in a way that is both practical and as safe as possible. The only sensible options are to limit contact (which has problems) or use protective equipment (which has problems).

What we need to do is acknowledge these problems and try to fill the gaps created in other ways / forms of training. To say training needs to be bare fisted and full contact (with no limits on head shots) to have value is seriously flawed as that has far more problems than the other options.

I have done full contact sparring with gloves and gum shield and gained a lot from doing that (don’t do it much these days). However, I’d never dream of fighting bare-fisted and full contact in training as I train with some bigger hitters and would like to think I’m one myself. If we were stupid enough to train that way, people would get seriously messed up. And for what benefit?

The “learn to take a punch” argument has flaws too because a bare-fisted punch feels very different to a gloved punch. Is there anyone out there who punches students full in the face with a bare fist so they know what it feels like? If there is, then they and their students need sectioned and treated for whatever sadistic / masochistic self-loathing, people hating defect is the cause.

We always need to make compromises in training and acknowledging these compromises and their effects is the way to go. Protective equipment is a compromise, but a very beneficial and sensible one in my view.

All the best,

Iain

Something I heard recenlty (it might even have been Iain that said/typed it) is that training is about triangulating what you want rather than directly locating it. Using different training methods to home-in on your desired result from multiple directions. Seeing as we can never truly re-create a real fight (although a recent Sayoc kali fight I saw came damn close).

That's what happnes in MMA as far as I know. Sparring in boxing gloves and head gear but no ground fighting to tackle heavy head contact, using smaller gloves and lower contact to integrate that into the rest of the game and also no sttriking at all and just grappling.

The end result hopefully being a fighter that can fight with bith heavy head contact and full grappling combined without ever doing exactly that combination in training.

Such I think is the way with more RBSD training too. It's all going to be compromise at the end of the day (as Iain says). You just have to make sure what's compromised in one drill or part of training is made up by removing that compromise in another.

As for armoured drilling with heavy head contact. Personally I'd keep that for special occasions. Like an animal day sort of thing. The rest of the time hit pads HARD but partners not quite so hard. :)

Padding up is just one way of working, we also spar with no pads and the rule of 'we must be able to work the next day', we also hit pads as hard as possible - it's all in the mix IMO.

Were also realistic that we are teaching karate, part time - not mma professionally - there is a huge difference in terms of performance levels and commitment.

A few posts have been deleted due of a breach of the site rules (http://iainabernethy.co.uk/site-rules). Offending members have been set private messages.

A general reminder to all to stay on topic and to avoid statements which can be read as being sarcastic or condescending. It was not acceptable on the old forum and that zero tolerance policy remains. That’s the rules, they are non-negotiable and they will be strictly enforced. People who don’t like it are welcome to post elsewhere.

Back to your regular scheduled programming ….

PASmith wrote:

You just have to make sure what's compromised in one drill or part of training is made up by removing that compromise in another.

shoshinkanuk wrote:

Padding up is just one way of working, we also spar with no pads and the rule of 'we must be able to work the next day', we also hit pads as hard as possible - it's all in the mix IMO.

That’s how I see it. As I said, it can be “realistic” but never “real”. The very fact we are not killing each other and sending students to the hospital in every session means the fights are not “real”. There are therefore flaws in all forms of training and protective equipment for heavy contact sparring is one of those (as is limiting targets if you forgo such protective equipment). However, the key is to ensure the faults introduced are addressed by other kinds of training. There is no one ultimate drill or one type of ultimate sparring that covers everything. As shoshinkanuk said, “It’s all in the mix”.

All the best,

Iain

Hey guys.

Again, thanks for all the feedback; I'm getting some interesting points of views here.

When it all boils down, I agree 150% that compromises have to be made.  However, I feel that the protective gear allows us to better train the full ranges of combat simultaneously.  I'm in the same boat as Lee Morrison because I also drill things like chinjabs and forearm strikes.  Without protection, we'd be toast.

Furthermore, I also look at this from a stress/muscle memory and trade-off viewpoint: by training in protective gear and drilling those so-called "lethal" (or rather, fight-stopping) strikes under stress, we are embedding those things within us and can better recall them when the time comes.  In terms of trade-offs, I go by the saying "A minute spent for sport is a minute not spent in self defense."  In combining those two, the more time we spend on things for sport, the more likely we'll recall them when the situation calls for something more drastic, and the opposite for training for self defense.  Hence, I think protective gear is a fair compromise that allows us to train for self defense (relatively) realistically while still maintaining a level of safety.

of course, training in moderate impact allows us to both train realistically and allow us to go home without feeling "brain static."

I tried the whole sparring with boxing gloves and I just don't feel it's fit for self defense training.  One of the reasons I'm not at my old club was because of a rift caused by two schools of training: I wanted protective gear to train under stress (I taught the self defense part) but the owners believed that doing kickboxing and/or MMA was the best way to learn self defense.  I was also told that boxing gloves are used because they ADD force to hits and are used to toughen people up!  In short, a lot of people don't see that sport-style training doesn't cross over to the street because, like what Iain mentioned in his "Sparring for the Street" article, glove sparring TAKES AWAY force and prevents the user from using a more diverse range of strikes.

I also agree that the "learning to take a hit" philosophy has flaws.  Also, I agree that getting hit with the glove is a hell of a lot different from getting punched in the face bare-fisted.  When I was growing up, I'd hide things like short screws between my fingers (if kids are capable of thinking of things like that, imagine what street predators could think of) so if people on the street are hiding concealed weapons, are we going to be able to "take the hit?"  Some companies even make motorcycle gloves with lead knuckles!  I think that school of thought has seriously underestimated the realities of street violence and it creates a false sense of security (but most  training labelled as "self defense" tends to).

When it comes to ground work, I think the headgear can be a disadvantage because trying to control a head with a face cage is much more complicated to do than say, gently applying pressure into the eyes to control.  This area is probably where I'll remove the gear, but when it comes to full-range self defense training, the protective gear allows the most options for striking and training even if it goes to the ground (I've found things like headbutts and strikes actually work pretty well on the ground).

So that's my rationale for protective gear.  One of my bouncer friends told me that his training involved goalie helmets, so I'm considering that (although $399 for one is pretty damn expensive).  I'm still shopping around for a good compromise between price and protection, so suggestions, as always, are welcome.

-Bri

Hi Brian,

Just a quick note to say thanks for the above post. I think it really helps clarify many of the issues and I appreciate you posting it.

All the best,

Iain

I haven't tried these out but they are meant to be the ones that daido juku wear, still a tad expensive for my taste

http://www.alsgym.co.uk/super-safe-head-guard-p-262.html

here is daido juku if you haven't seen it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH-4Es9JyqQ

In my karate school we use SuperSafe® Bogu equipment. Although it is fairly expensive, it is a great trainingtool since you don't need any hand and foot protection. The protectors teach you to make good form (hand and foot form). Since they are rather hard, you get punished for making bad technique. a softer chestprotector would translate impact better to the body, but it will hand in on the form of your technique.

You can have a look or order at Asawa World Coorporation: http://www.asawaworld.com/guard/index.html (in japanese however).
At some Koshiki Karate website you might find some info in english.

I have mixed approaches when it comes to head contact.

If contact is likely then I insist on head guards (cage face guards with visors attached or High Gear).  These do little to mitigate the shock effect to the brain, which is one of the most important practical effects of headshots. From my perspective the purpose of headguards is as follows:

1. To reduce facial injury (eg broken teeth, jaw, nose) and bruising.

2. To increase feelings of vulnerability.

3. To reduce peripheral vision.

In my experience students associate headguards with contact.  As a result the wearing of headguards often causes an adrenal release and feelings of anticipation, which is very useful for self protection training.  The reduction of peripheral vision mimics severe adrenal responses and has its uses in training as well.

With regard to using headguards, the general rule I apply is that all contact is made along a force continuum. Simulated aggressors always attack hard, however if the student is inexperienced I have them aim their (haymaker/sucker) punches behind the head so that if contact is made, it is with the inner forearm (the visual appearance is the same for the recipient).  By contrast defenders in scenarios are encouraged to pull their hits to the head slightly to avoid damage (due to repetitive palms to the head) and/or knockouts.  To overcome this the same attacks are often done with focus mitts, with the defender able to hit a pad (in place of a head) full pelt after evading the initial attack.

As has been said above, getting hit in the head is not pleasant.  It is also risky.  It is however an important part of training and development as part of the ability to fight.