A real fight story

Hi Jason,

thats an interesting story, you are telling.

You said you are happy it happend because it proofed what you trained and teached was/is right. You said that you only used a view moves (headbutt, punches, etc.). Do you teach only your proven things? Or are you of the opinion that you learned the whole karate thing and because a view things out of the whole worked out pretty well, so the rest will do so too? Are you sure that only because that worked out for you, it will automaticaly work for others (e.g. your students)?

I have never been in actual physical altercations, but I trained with people who were. Can I rely on their experiences or do I have to make my own? Because the old karate masters like Mabuni tested their skills regularly in so called kakedameshi. Motobu did provoke fights also to test his skills.

Is here a dilemma that we martial artists are facing?

Just a few questions .

Have a merry christmas too.

Regards Holger

Interesting story Jason.

I think your code is a little shaky though as it is not possible to expect the unexpected - that's what makes it unexpected. Nor is it possible to always be ready.as you need to both know and define what it is that you are ready for and that, by definition means that you are not ready for something else... 

I also tthink some of your conclusions are a bit misguided.

Do you genuinely think that you can only learn from people who have done it for real? That, for example, someone who trained with someone who did it for real, has nothing to teach?  Who would you rather learn boxing from - Mike Tyson or Cus D'Amato?

You go on to say that you 'only teach what works'. The logical conclusion to your post is that you therefore only teach headbutts, left hooks, sweeps and front kicks from the ground. Now I don't know you but I humbly suggest that that is not the case and that you teach a whole lot more than that. As you should.

Some of what you teach will work - for some people, while some of it will not. That is the truth of the situation - not just for you, but for all of us.

I did like your fight analysis though and I believe that you should attempt to analyse all altercations in the way you did and then feed the learnings back into your training so thank you for sharing it.

I really like what Gavin has to say.

Beyond that, i'd say to look at it a bit broader. What works is often determined by the context, you could have lost that fight, gotten maimed or died even I suppose. Had you lost, would that mean the techniques you used aren't effective, or is the answer a bit more subtle than that?

Hi guys, thanks for your replys.

What i meant was i teach karate as a whole as i believe in it as a self-defence martial art.  I agree that what may work for me certainly may not work for someone else, i do indeed teach headbutts,hooks,sweeps and front kicks as do most karate clubs but teach all the normal techniques within karate, the basics, pinan katas, kumite etc so my apologises if it came across that i only teach those above, that would be very wrong.

I agree that (expect the unexpected) is a bit dodgy,lol again what i mea.

nt behind that was if someone burst into your house with a baseball bat and starting attacking you (example) one should expect this to happen because of the violent world we live in, and of course we cant always be ready but always be aware of your surroundings etc.

I really dont recommend provoking fights to test ones skills etc as karate (my chosen dicipline) is not about that, the fights ive been in i acted in self-defence when there was no means of escape, i have indeed talked my way out of fights specially when i used to work on the doors. I always say to my students try and talk your way out, if not run, if that fails stun and run.

I think one can listen to an instructors fighting experiences and take note, as to rely on them may not be a good idea as they may not be able to pull the techniques of, or hit as hard etc etc.

We also cant forget that karate has been proven in combat many times and been around a long time, all the techniques work its just how you would use them in different situations.

Fighting is always the last answer to any problem and dont recommend it.

First learn how to heal, to hurt someone is easy.

Kind regards

Jason

I really don't feel it's that simple.

There isn't just one kind of violence and then BAM you understand it all, it's a complex problem.

A "fight" such as what you got in might differ substantially from a full on ambush assault, which differs entirely from the point of view of a small woman being attacked by a  larger man, which differs from the experience of a boxer, which differs from the experience of a bouncer etc.

I don't mean to discount your experiences, i've tried to take my own experiences with violence into my training as well. The real question is what you can do with the information though. If you cannot make it relevant to someone without your experiences, f your experience cannot be translated into what a small woman or someone else very different from you might encounter, maybe it's less universally relevant than you think.

Again that's not to discount the story you tell, certainly it's a sitaution worth analyzing, I just don't think it's an open and shut case that you are more qualified to teach martial arts because of a couple scraps..it's a very layered issue I guess.

Also, I feel like the 'person waiting for you with a baseball bat' thing is a bit questionable, we actually don't live in that violent a world ( at least not in developed countries). If people truly want to avoid violence IMO it is in most cases quite possible to simply extricate yourself from situations where someone is waiting for you with a baseball bat. I grew up in a bad neghborhood around a fair amount of violent crime and have a spouse that works in criminal jsutice, it's been my experience that nine times out of ten if someone is waiting for you outside with a bat, it could very well be a 'lifestyle issue', and in many cases your own actions could have played a role in putting you in that spot.

There is random violence, but the random stuff seems fairly rare in comparison to stuff which comes with wanring signs.

I would say if someone is claiming to teach a "self defense" class, they should be teaching how NOT to put yourself in those sorts of situations first and foremost.

While i certainly think your experiences are worth mulling over and internalizing lessons from, and  definitely give you an important  point of view that you wouldn't have otherwise; I would say your overall approach to learning and digesting information from others and listening to accounts of people who have different experiences entirely with violence than you have is equally important.

Jason,

I'm glad you got away safe and I hope your head heals soon.

There are good points made by all here, so I'll just add a little of what I've experienced between the street and dojo. Probably the biggest thing is dealing with a violent and confrontational person one on one is very unsettling, especially if you've never had to before. Practicing two person drills, full-contact fighting etc, etc, inside the dojo does prepare you to a degree, however when you find yourself grappling/grabbed by someone who is drunk, cursing to high heaven, smells bad, and is spitting on you all at the same time then the fight, flight or freeze reaction can and often does go into freeze mode only. Likewise if you've never experienced the full-blown adrenaline rush of a fight or flight situation along with the accompanying motor skill loss then during the confrontation you can become confused as to what your experiencing and this will become a mental handicap.

For me experience isn't so much a technical thing as is understanding how to deal with the emotions and bodily responses inherit to a fight. I've known really good karate-ka who in the dojo could beat almost everyone in the ring.  However when facing their first real fight they choked simply because they were not used to the reactions/emotons they were experiencing. By the same token I've also known guys who only knew one or two techniques, but during the course of a brawl they understand what they were experiencing (because they'd been in fights before) and because of that proved to be very formidable opponents. Or to put it another way, everyone is scared and excited during a battle, its just that the veterans know it.

Mike

Out of about 25 violent situations (of various natures and seriousness) I've taken 3 pretty full on beatings in my life, I learn't most from them for sure.

The guys have given some really good info in this thread, and good on you Jason for posting to get it started.

These days my 'risk analysis' is much improved and I don't drink alcohol or use drugs, or get involved in 'wrong un's' - self defence Kihon if you like!

I don't teach "Self-Defence" as a separate part of my Syllabus. I use the Kata that are there and its used against varying attacks.

The one thing on the street is you can't ask them to stand in a certain way and do the strike again cause you got it wrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_vvI26NnwE

Jim Carey-Karate Instructor