Running attacks

Have you ever done any research or training in the art of Aikido? The basis of the whole system is using an opponents energy against them by redirecting it and moving your own body in relation to theirs. I have been cross training in it for about a year now, and I'll tell you I have started to effect my linear training in a positive way.

In short..learn to blend, learning funcitonal body shifting is more important than learning to "step" for this, stepping often takes more time than you have I think. I would consider learning to deal with rushes as a part of HAPV stuff. This is actually something I personally do a 'basic' drill, a body coming at you with force is not (IME of course) remotely unusual, and shouldn't be any kind of speciliazed thing.

kata is full of 'opening' movements, similar to a tighter version of AIkido tenkan movement...just practice having someone rush with a pushing motion to begin with, then add in strikes- has to be a dedicated movement though, the drill doesn't work if people "stop" in the middle of a rush. The evasive principles aren't any different than anything else, just..larger I guess. The main thing is you need to practice moving your center in a way that it does not eat the brunt of the force, and makes the force roll around or past you...you can use a turning motion in neko ashi dachi  -such as the end of gekisai dai ni kata for instance-  as a beginning, basically, shift your butt backwards as you rotate - as long as you understand, there is no static stance, and the point is to get off the train tracks!

Another thing, probably painfully obvious..but I think most of the kata-based solutions also advocate trying to establish some bit of control of the head right away, after all if you can direct the motion of someone's head/spine quickly it helps a whole lot in terms of cutting momentum.

Hi all,

Thanks for the input.

Zach_MB, yeah agree, irimi nage is a technique which comes to mind and one which I have seen performed at speed during Aikido randori.

Thanks Zach Zinn. Yeah see how in the kata it teaches to shift to 45 or 90 degrees before performing a technique. 

So it is a case of stepping off the line of attack before launching into the counterattack. If this is the case, how do you do this while protecting anyone you may be with. For example, attacker is charging towards you at warp speed, you move off the line of attack and fire a palm heel straight into the jaw with all your might. Attacker drops, but say 18 stone of mass continues forward, crashing into anything in its way. Is it too much to move those you wish to protect out of the way at the same time?

This may appear to be a little over the top, but is actually a concept which is drilled into our history. This was in the form of when it was commonplace to wear swords in public. They were usually worn in the left side so a right handed could draw with thier correct hand. Traditionally, a lady would walk with a gentleman to his right so he could draw his sword easily. Conversely today with concealed weapon permits where pistols are carried on the same side as dominat hand, concealed permit holders walk on the right of their loved ones, again with the intention of gaining an unhindered draw.

Bit of a long way of saying the way we position ourselves in relation to those we wish to protect has always been implememted throughout history. How do we achieve such positioning to take into account a charging attack?

Greg

Off the top of my head..I am not sure why things would be different here with a charging attack vs. someting else. A charging attack is just a more defined version of 'standard' stuff, there is always a body coming at you, right?

-get to a blind spot immediately

-whatever your weapon is (fist, implemenent, whatever) don't let him know about before using it

-deploy it with extreme prejudice if there is real danger to you and/or your loved one, and make sure they are out of the way!

-if possible, put him into something, and put something between him/you and your loved one.

On good basic responses, you can also used shuto-uchi and body movement as a blending movement that works very well with comitted "charges"

Thanks Zach Zinn. Yeah you are totally right, I think at some point or another all martial artists are guilty of over thinking things and I am a major culprit of this. I think another contributing factor may be the influence of sports in the thought process. For example, when we watch rugby, people are doing exactly, in my opinion anyway, what should not be done to stop a running attacker but is the first relatable thing that comes to mind. 

Great input thought as has definately given considerable food for thought. 

Greg wrote:

Thanks Zach Zinn. Yeah you are totally right, I think at some point or another all martial artists are guilty of over thinking things and I am a major culprit of this. I think another contributing factor may be the influence of sports in the thought process. For example, when we watch rugby, people are doing exactly, in my opinion anyway, what should not be done to stop a running attacker but is the first relatable thing that comes to mind. 

Great input thought as has definately given considerable food for thought. 

Rory Miller has written some interesting stuff on why people sometimes do the opposite of what makes sense combatively. To super simplify it...basically the argument is something like: social violence behaviors are meant to assert dominance, and not injure. Whereas asocial violence the goal is actually to injure, obtain a resource etc. I remember doing his class and he talked alot about how people will often naturally gravitate towards a strategy that is actually less effective - i.e. your rugby example. I know I found it to be true for myself!

Since all the ideas is taken from the commentary above, I would also practice with your partner with a practice weapon drills of 8 directional steps....Example, side to side, 45 degree step, front-back steps, e.t.c.....Use kime while doing these exercise and Zanshin

Thanks Zach Zinn, think I have seen some of Rory Miller's before, but will definitely look up some more of his material. 

One concept which I think is also worth exploring is the nature of the attack. Well, not so much attack but scenario. Now I may be going a little bit off topic but is somthing which I find quite interesting when held in comparison to traditional thoughts of self defence.  How would you latch onto a running opponent whom simply wants to get away?This is more in relation to a security scenario, someone makes a run for it and security need to stop them and obviously are not able to strike them. 

Trying to grip into someone running forward is pretty dangerous, do you grip and push or pull taking them off balance in a direction they are not heading? Or is this why security guards are usually quite large and hence pose more of a obstacle to the fleeing subject.

Well, I have no real-life experience in the area...but in training it seems like if you are trying to manipulate someone moving, bringin their head in a direction away from their body is a good place to start, that is one of those things you have no choice but to react to. Again though, I wonder if the question is getting  a bit theoretical at this point? Certainly it's something you could play with in scenarios etc...it just seems awfully specific.

Yeah my bad for going off on a bit of a tangent. Will give it a go Zach and experiment with it a bit. As you have said, will start slow and then build up the speed. Thanks for the input . 

Now i'm actually interested to hear if anyone (LEO, security etc.) has ever been in this situation, and what "worked" there..

Hey Zach,

I asked an LEO once what they did to stop someone they were chasing. They said they either punched the perpetrator in the small of the back or kicked their legs from under them. This was while giving chase though and not with the perpetrator running towards them or trying to get past them. 

Is interesting though when you consider the limited actions available to security guards, door staff etc.

Greg

Greg,

Personally I think the  'what if' scenarios around your realistic experience the way you are doing is a very positive exercise, although I think you could possibly take such thinking one step further and assess the relative 'probability' of future engagement in the sceanrios you desccribe of stopping the shoplifer and the basic 'charging'.

You have probably seen the video floating around the internet of a guy who stops some kid in a mall with a spinning kick to the head.  Not terribly practical maybe, but there is an option that 'worked'.  :-)   If you really feel the need to be involved, a basic American football/ Rugby  tackle might also be an option... sometimes the solution doesn't need to be fancy.  Flip a trash bin or potted plant in front of him or push a cart into the guy's path to slow him down.  Throw a back pack at his legs when he runs by, etc.  Dump a soda or a coffee on the tile in his path.

Personally, with regard to this scenario, I would focus your attention on the first part of that, answer, however, i.e. on the need to be involved at all.

I am not saying you are doing so, but it's my feeling that many martial artists practice a great deal of attendant 'lip-service' to the idea's of 'avoiding violence' and 'looking the other way'; also to the ideas of 'property' being of theoretically less valuable than risk of  personal injury.  So here you have a perfect opportunity to practice martial 'abstinence'... to my perception, unless you are working mall security, the fact is, you probably DON'T have to get involved and run the guy down, and if you do,  you raise the opprtunity you wil be injured.  And having said that, I am sure that a lot of people out there will think that 'yeah but, if nobody get's involved, nothing get's any better', etc. etc., which is certainly a SOCIAL truism.  From a PERSONAL PROTECTION standpoint, however, the fact remains that 'avoidance'  of engagaing in violence is your #1 'best defense'.

I see this with studen't all the time.  After dutifully wagging their heads to all my 'just walk away talk', they turn around and ask me what move to use when someone is trash talking them from such and such a position at a bar.  Sigh.  :-)

Regarding the second scenario of the clenched fist 'charge', this is something that I feel is very important to train for, and as realistically as possible.  Another opinion of mine is that most combatives training is entirely 'too contrived'.  You need to work sceanrios where the attack is 'unknown' to the 'defender' / trainee role.  Most of these should be 'mostly devoid' of what I term 'complex' attacks (i.e. learned motor responses like most basic 'combinations'), and more about sloppy, uncoordinated but highly aggressive 'overwhelming barrage' and 'hockey fighting' type poundings.  Many martial artsists are overly prepred for the former, and grossly underprepared for the latter, which is why they buckle in the face of an all out assault.  So called 'real' fighting is chaotic and unpredictable and training needs to attempt to address those factors, IN ADDITION to undertaking highly choreographed, technically 'tight' forms of training.

All that being said,  I teach basically two 'responses' to that scenario.  The first ois to 'cover and crash' with some (hopefully boney) protruberance foremost as the point of impact.  The key for 'crashing' to be an effective defense (my opinion) is twofold.  1)  you need ade4quate defensive coverage, recognizing that you are effectively 'bracing' to be struck, and tehrefore likeley WILL be struck; and 2) (the most important part), you need to hit the threat with as much momentum, or preferably-- more momentum then he has put into his charge.  A successful 'crash' being one that not only neutralizes his forward momentum, but that actually 'rocks him back' over his heels.

The second mechanics I teach are basically sacrifice throws.  I.e. you have contact, you are already losing your balance and falling as a result of his rush, and you (hopefully) secure a grip and attempt to 'reverse' your inferiro position by converting his momentum to your advantage, i.e. by essentially 'tripping him' with your body. 

I see they have already beeen recommended, but I would add that Rory's first book, especially, is a 'must read' for anyone who considers themself to be 'serious' about self protection, and certainly anyone who is instructing others in the same.

Does anyone have experience of Parkour? Specifically Parkour as opposed to Free Running.

My understaning (and please correct me if necessary) is that Parkour was devised a Martial Art with the express remit of optimum efficiency in moving between two distant points. It's not intended to be flamboyant or aesthetic, like Free Running which promotes that, but inevitably is those things to a degree. The Parkour practitioner's goal to reach a point as quickly as possible OR escape from a point as quickly as possible, IE to aprehend or escape.

The reason I raise this is that, given that one of their objects is aprehension, presumably of someone escaping, how do they transition from the movement into the aprehension and what sort of technique do they use?

I know it's flippant, but anybody who has played rugby for any length of time is very used to handling the fully body charge situation.

In terms of running and hitting, just 10 minutes on you tube will show you how common that style of attack is at closing time. It would seem to me that actually defence against long range attacks (which is what this is) is something that a lot of "traditional" karate training approaches caters for quite well.. Certainly if you see it coming anyway.

It isn't flippant and is actually a very good point.

Many instructors talk about running away from attacks. How many train this? I was one of the guilty that paid the skill lip service and never practiced it. Is there actually a more effective way of training running away, evading attacks and rapidly changing direction than practicing rugby?

At five foot one I don't really want to get into a fight. Unless I am with my family and need to protect them, I am quiet happy to run away from an attack if I can see it comming. Best way to train to evade and run away is play British bulldog! I usually run four miles three times a week anyway just to keep fit and keep the weight off, but it can clearly be a usefull self defence skill!

Aaah British bulldog, I've cracked more teeth playing that at school then in Karate, rugby and all other sports combined. fantastic fun for anyone who enjoys a bit of a ruck...which is most of us I assume if you frequent this forum.

...although nowadays I don't seem to bounce as well as I used too..