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tubbydrawers
tubbydrawers's picture
Sochin

Hi, my son is working his way though Sochin and performing the Bunkai along side it at the same time. This is the Shotokan version. He wants to know why there are a couple of the same moves in sochin and heian yondan. This is the step up side kick with elbow going into your hand. Apart from the stance, it's basically the same move. Would people on here perform the same Bunkai for yondan as well as sochin? Or would you have 2 x different sets for each Kata. My take is that I would use the same Bunkai, but he would like to do something different if possible. Thanks for any help for him

AllyWhytock
AllyWhytock's picture

Hi,

Heian Yondan was created by Anko Itosu. His student was Kenwa Mabuni. Around 1909/1910, Itosu sent Mabuni to Naha to learn from Kanryo Higashionna & Seisho Arakaki. Here he learned what became the Shito Ryu style kata Sochin.  (Empty Hand: The Essence of Budo Karate by Kenei Mabuni et al. Link: http://amzn.eu/d/hkwkq1F). Kenwa Mabuni would go on to found the Shito-Ryu style.

Anko Itosu's other student was Gichin Funakoshi, who would be the progentitor of the Shotokan style. His son was Yoshitaka Funakoshi, who was sent to Mabuni to learn more Kata. (Empty Hand: The Essence of Budo Karate by Kenei Mabuni et al. Link: http://amzn.eu/d/hkwkq1F).

Yoshitaka was an innovator and was not shy of changing techniques & kata to suit his dynamic personal style (see Funakoshi Gichin & Funakoshi Yoshitaka: Two Karate Masters  by Henning Wittwer Link: http://amzn.eu/d/7wqOV6P .

I posit the theory that Yoshitaka modifed the Shito-Ryu Sochin to that what we know as Shotokan Sochin, with the modifiers being certain features of Heian Kata. 

#Here is Iain sensei demonstrating Sochin application in parallel with the Kata.

 

Fundamentally an arm bar leading to a kick to the knee and elbow strike. I do the same in Heian Yondan.

I've practiced separating the arms, pushing through under the amr pit and punching. The exit would be grab the head/hair/collar, moved behind and kick the back of the knee.

I hope this helps and other folks chime in to correct any errors or alternate explanations/views.

Kindest Regards,

Ally

Marc
Marc's picture

Thanks Ally for that historic perspective and the application you point to.

In short: I would happily use the same application for this sequence in Sochin, Heian Yondan, Kanku Dai, Kanku Sho, and maybe even for simliar moves in Gankaku, Nijushiho, Bassai Dai.

On the other hand, there are always various posslible applications for each sequence in any kata. So it should not be too difficult to find another meaning for it if your son wants to.

In the end the application should fit within the context of all the other applications in the kata. It would not make much sense if all applications where defenses against the same kind of attack, like a collar grab in this case - or an Oi-Zuki as often seen.

Each kata represents a more or less complete fighting system (the five Heians make one entity), so we should expect to find a variety of principles that work against a variety of common attacks.

We should also expect to find similar principles encoded in the various katas because it is good to have them in your toolbox. Therefore is perfectly reasonable to assume that similar movements from different katas have similar meaning.

If your son still needs some ideas for his bunkai, he might find inspiration in the Sochin application playlist I maintain on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7EpUUJf7I4&list=PL8afHr6bopMBmyY1BgaFCOUEDMTgoOuJm

All the best,

Marc

tubbydrawers
tubbydrawers's picture

Hi,

Thanks for the responses :)

AllyWhytock wrote:
I posit the theory that Yoshitaka modifed the Shito-Ryu Sochin to that what we know as Shotokan Sochin, with the modifiers being certain features of Heian Kata.

This is what I thought too. Im glad others think the same way.

Marc wrote:
Each kata represents a more or less complete fighting system (the five Heians make one entity), so we should expect to find a variety of principles that work against a variety of common attacks.

We should also expect to find similar principles encoded in the various katas because it is good to have them in your toolbox. Therefore is perfectly reasonable to assume that similar movements from different katas have similar meaning.

I thought this too.

I have seen Iains clips as well as on the App, I just wondered about the same movement would have the same application.

On that note, because there are 2 of these movements in Shochin, would it be fair to repeat the same movemnt but on different sides of the body. As being attacked maybe by a Right handed person or a left, depending on the situation?

Thanks

Nimrod Nir
Nimrod Nir's picture

Hi Ally,

AllyWhytock wrote:
I posit the theory that Yoshitaka modifed the Shito-Ryu Sochin to that what we know as Shotokan Sochin, with the modifiers being certain features of Heian Kata. 

How did you come up with this theory? Do you have any basis for it?

It seems unlikely to me, as the two katas have nothing in common (no similar techniques or embusen). Have a look for yourself:

Shitoryu Sochin: 

 

Shotokan Sochin: 

 

It seems to me like you may have added a few facts together and jumped to a (potentially false) conclusion?

Fact 1: Both Shitoryu and Shotokan share a kata by the name of 'Sochin' (however, with no similarity whatsoever between them) 

Fact 2: Kenwa Mabuni learn Sochin kata from Seisho Arakaki.

Fact 3: Later indeed, Yoshitaka 'Gigo' Funakoshi learnt several "new" kata from Kenwa Mabuni.

Fact 4: Gigo Funkoshi has considerably influenced his dad's 'style' and made many changes to it.

Conclusion (?): Gigo Funakoshi must have learnt Sochin from Kenwa Mabuni and changed it so much that it is unrecognizable, by modifying it with Pinan techniques (??)

As I mentioned, it seems unlikely to me. The Questions that immediately jump to my mind:

1. How come the two katas have nothing in common? No similar techniques? Not even the "unique" ones? No similar embusen?

2. Why would Gigo "contaminate" the kata he learnt from Mabuni with Pinan techniques? What's the point in that? The Pinans are already a part of the Shotokan curriculum. It would seem more logical if Gigo was to modify and "Shotokanize" the kata he learnt (e.g. wider stances, kokutsu dachi instead of nekoashi dachi, higher kicks etc.). However, it is clearly not the case. 

I'm interested to learn more about your logical process used when developing your theory.

Historical speculations always interesting to me :)

Marc
Marc's picture

tubbydrawers wrote:

On that note, because there are 2 of these movements in Shochin, would it be fair to repeat the same movemnt but on different sides of the body. As being attacked maybe by a Right handed person or a left, depending on the situation?

Yes, definitely.

Handedness might be one reason, but I would simply go with opportunity. Take the application where the koshi-gamae (hands stacked at the hip opposite of the following side kick) is used to apply an arm bar. The opportunity for this kind of elbow lock can be illustrated by an outside clash of back hands (or wrists or lower arms) either left on left or right on right. In reality this could happen because a right handed attacker tries to push you with his left hand to create the perfect distance for his right hook, and you evade to the outside and get your left hand between you and the pushing hand. Or it could just happen mid grappling whenever you feel your back hands touching. That feeling would then trigger the application. It would not have much to do with handedness.

Anyway, when a technique is repeated at an angle to the left and to the right, I would always assume that it means we should train the same application on both sides.

Take care,

Marc

AllyWhytock
AllyWhytock's picture

Hi Nimrod,

Thank you. It's a theory but I should've framed it as a question. I was rather hasty. 

It was mainly from this text: Kenei Mabuni "Empty Hand" p57: "master Funakoshi, too had learned many kata from my father through his son Gigo". 

Interestingly, I read in Simon Keegan's Karate Jutsu p83 that Taiji Kase, a student of Gigo (Yoshitaka) Funakoshi, seemed to suggest that Sochin also came from the Matsumura-Azato branch. I will ponder this.  

Kindest Regards,

Ally

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

I can’t say I’ve really looked into the history of these kata, and I’m not familiar with the Shito-Ryu version. The Shotokan one is a kata I know and (very) occasionally drill (both kata and bunkai). So based on the caveat of sparse knowledge in this area, it seems to be as if Ockham’s Razor could be applied here:

“Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem" or “More things should not be used than are necessary.”

Basically, we should favour the explanation that requires the least assumptions; providing both explanations work equally well.

As I see it, there are two possible explanations to the origins of the Shotokan version at the moment:

1) It is Gigo Funakoshi’s severely modified version of the Sochin of Shito-Ryu

2) Gigo created (learned from an unidentified source?) a kata that just happens to share the same name as the kata in Shito-Ryu

The first explanation requires a ton of assumptions because the changes are so great as to render the kata entirely different. Indeed, if it was not for the shared name we would have no reason to assume they were connected.

The second explanation simply requires the assumption of a common name; so it would be the favoured one (unless more evidence comes forth).  

Gigo also created a bo kata called “Matsukaze”, but this has nothing to do with the Shito-Ryu empty hand kata of the same name. So, there is a precedent for this kind of thing.

Gigo Funakoshi’s Matsukaze

 

Shito-Ryu’s Matsukaze

 

I feel the logical explanation for the two very different kata is that they have no historical connection, but just happen to share the same name.

All the best,

Iain

Nimrod Nir
Nimrod Nir's picture

Iain Abernethy wrote:
I feel the logical explanation for the two very different kata is that they have no historical connection, but just happen to share the same name.

Totally agree with Iain. I also think that the Matsukaze precedent considerably strengthens this conclusion.

Cheers,

Nimrod

AllyWhytock
AllyWhytock's picture

Hi Iain,

Thank you. Different Kata with the same name intrigue me e.g. Wankan: Shito Ryu - "Pine Waves" or Shotokan - "King's Crown". Interesting embusen comparison between Shito Ryu and Shotokan versions. It is a interesting observation that Shoto means "the movement of pine needles when the wind blows through them". Am I observing a name change to avoid a potential clash?  I'll ponder these questions for the long winter evenings. :)

Kindest Regards,

Ally

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

AllyWhytock wrote:
Different Kata with the same name intrigue me I'll ponder these questions for the long winter evenings. :)

Me too and me too :-)

AllyWhytock wrote:
Different Kata with the same name intrigue me e.g. Wankan: Shito Ryu - "Pine Waves" or Shotokan - "King's Crown". Interesting embusen comparison between Shito Ryu and Shotokan versions. It is a interesting observation that Shoto means "the movement of pine needles when the wind blows through them". Am I observing a name change to avoid a potential clash?

This has been discussed before and this old post would seem relevant:

https://iainabernethy.co.uk/comment/9115#comment-9115

All the best,

Iain

AllyWhytock
AllyWhytock's picture

Thanks Iain. Excellent :)