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stephen
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Stances v Postures

Iain posted a quote on Facebook...

"Although there are hundreds of different stances, they all exist for the same purpose: to defeat the enemy." - Yagyu Munenori (1571 - 1646)

We talk about stances juch as zenkutsudachi and so on. Tachi meaning stance. Then we talk about fighting stance and we call it Kamae. What's the difference?

According to wikipedia, tachi refers to what happens below the waist, i.e. how you arrange your feet, legs and hips. Kamae meaning posture, refers to the whole body. So tachi talks about the mechanisms of different ways of standing, but kamae is all about your entire frame - and that would include your arms, hands and head. Would it also include your attitude and focus? And your fighting spirit?

It would be interesting to see the original Japanese version of the above quote to see if it refers to tachi or kamae.

In kata we talk about stances - so they are the positions into which we move. Momentary pauses in the routine. But we also have kamae, which represents each posture... awareness and application.

So kamae is dynamic. It is constantly changing and fluid, whereas tachi are 'fixed' positions. In kata the tachi are dots in the picture, but we join the dots with kamae. I'm sure  you all realise the kata is (mostly) about the movements, not the positions. To use another analogy, kata is a 'video', not a sequence of 'photos in a book' (or even one of those flick books kids make).

What are your thoughts on tachi and kamae?

GaryWado
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"Kamae" goes well beyond the physical.

IMO, It's about your "mental poise" more than anything else.

Gary

clouviere
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I would say that both stances and postures are dynamic.  There is an excellent video of Mr. Abernethy in someone's back yard talking about stances.  I won't even try to repeat what he says so well. 

I see postures as stances plus other things, such as you suggest.  The entire posture has a tactical goal, behind supported by the movement of the entire body towards that goal, to include your lower body.  The movement of the entire body does depend on your legs and feet, but it is the whole posture that is being worked towards.  Tactically.

I don't even think there is anything wrong with your inclusion of attitude, spriit, etc.  It's all part of the theme.

So, I would agree with your assessment.

Chris

DaveB
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GaryWado wrote:

"Kamae" goes well beyond the physical.

IMO, It's about your "mental poise" more than anything else.

Gary

But the mind and body are meant to be as one, unifying action and purpose to achieve our desired goal. 

shoshinkanuk
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'kamae' (ready) to me denotes a mental state that allows the strategy of karate to be deployed. Switching on if you like following Zanshin.

'kamae te' (ready hands) denotes the additional physical positon one may adopt or move through to protect oneself, invite an attack etc.

Of course it's not fixed, but it's there IMO in classical kata. If one accepts there was a genuine need for dueling strategy in older martial arts, and these were serious affairs then it makes sense theres a 'start' point, this is also KamaeTe.

GaryWado
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"Ki Ken Tai no Ichi"

Indeed DaveB

ky0han
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Hi everyone,

shoshinkanuk wrote:
'kamae te' (ready hands) denotes the additional physical positon one may adopt or move through to protect oneself, invite an attack etc.

Sorry Jim but Kamaette doesn't mean ready hands like Mawatte doesn't mean turning hands and like Naotte doesn't mean relaxing hands. Kamaette is just the command from an instructor to is students to take a certain posture like an imperative of kamae if you will.

And yes Kamae also includes the mindset in my eyes.

Regards Holger

Drew Loto
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GaryWado wrote:

"Kamae" goes well beyond the physical.

IMO, It's about your "mental poise" more than anything else.

Gary

I would agree that "poise" is probably a much better translation of kamae than "stance."  Your kamae, for instance, can be a semingly casual posture, with one hand on your elbow and the other on your chin, as if thoughtful, all the while hiding your readiness to pre-empt.  Mind and body are one, but the mind moves physicality.  If your kamae is tranquil and collected, your physical position will reflect that.  

Tachi, for me, has always referred to the physical position one assumes when learning a sport.  When someone walks into your class for the first time, you teach them tachi.  Kamae is something they must learn through example and through practice.  Just my two cents.  

shoshinkanuk
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Thanks for the explanation/expantion Holger- I was only stating what the term means to me without to much thought (posture does ring serious bells now), im no linguist etc.

You are of course correct, heres the Wiki entry that relates-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamae

GaryWado
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This Tachi [character not supported] simply means to stand or to take a stand.... if that makes sense.

It usually infers a stance of strength.

Gary

ky0han
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Hi Jim,

no problem. Don't wanted to be a smart a$$ here. I am no linguist either just a hobby japanophile :o).

In regards to Kamae I once heard an example of it together with the fudoshin principle. So your mindset is like if the japanese god of war Fudo Myoo standing right behind you and so you have no posibility to retreat. So you are focussed on the enemy in front of you.

Regards Holger

Gavin J Poffley
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Ok, here is my analysis from a translator's perspective:

The term "kamae" is perhaps best translated as "ready posture", especially in the martial arts context, as the core nuance is physically preparing to do something. This can include the mental preparation/ awareness aspect too although there is a specific word "kokorogamae" (literally the "kamae" of the heart or mind) to express that. 

The word is actualy a nominal verison of the verb "kamaeru" which can mean to take up such a ready posture as well as simply to prepare something or prepare to do something. This is the verb you would use to express readying a gun or brandishing a sword etc. The imperative form is "kamaete" which as most here know is the standard "get ready" command used in karate tournaments. 

"tachi" on the other hand is not actually a correct term. What is being referred to here is "tachikata" which is simply the posture/ stance in which one stands and does not carry the meaning of iminent action that kamae does. "-dachi" is the suffix used for specific stances and not really a word on its own.

The nuance  of both very much implies a static posture (as does the other commonly used equivalent "shisei") although this does not mean that Japanese martial arts do not value movement. The same misunderstanding due to the nature of the words used exists in both languages.

Gavin J Poffley
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Oh, and the word that Yagyu Munenori used in the quote that started this thread was indeed "kamae".

To give a bit of background, the shinkage ryu that the Yagyu clan created and passed down actually disliked the term "kamae" quite a bit, exactly because it was often implied to mean fixed, static positions. Of course they could not really find a suitable alternative (some of the Yagyu ryu branch curriculums use a very eseoteric term "kurai" whch also roughly translates to "position") and still used it, especially in discussions with others who used the term.

Miyamoto Musashi was also not really a fan of fixed "kamae" either. He was very much about mercilessly pressing the enemy and maintaining the initiative. I found this quote from the Book of 5 Rings that sums up his ideology:

"Pre-emptive attack! A duel is about defeating the foe with a pre-emptive attack! Taking up a stance (kamae) is nothing more than mentally resigning yourself  to wait for the foe to get in a pre-emptive attack. Stances and other such reactive measures are a travesty" -Miyamoto Musashi

Interestingly the term he uses for "pre-emptive attack" is none other than our old friend "sente" that karate apparently does not contain!!

Iain Abernethy
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Gavin J Poffley wrote:
Ok, here is my analysis from a translator's perspective:

Thanks for that Gavin. Very intresting and informative.