Student success

Hi Mark,

I’m pleased to hear your student was relatively unharmed and that his training kept him safe. The key here is that the methods he used are both physically and tactically simple, and inline with how the body reacts to stress. His training reflects reality and hence his dojo experiences prepared him well for this real experience.  He’s “been there” and “done that” so there was no huge disconnect. He was also educated on the effects of “fear” and how things work legally. All the boxes ticked hence it’s not surprising things worked as they should. The methodology of kata really does work well when practised correctly. Thanks for sharing this as there are a number of useful lessons within.

All the best,

Iain

Hi Iain,

Thanks for the post. You know me reasonably well and how I view my karate and self protection and how I structure my training. I appreciate the positive reply.

I think it is appropriate for me to state that there were two significant factors during my attempts to develop a training system that I felt would work in the real environments such as described in my post above. Iains Bunkai Jutsu series, which stated each kata is a complete system in its own right, and a seminar of Iains from a number of years ago where he intrroduced his idea of cover, crash from the opening of Naihanchi. I had already chosen Naihanchi as my kata of choice, the new information for a flinch response resonated with me, and my memory of real experiences.

I would recommend Beyond Bunkai as a great medium for applying kata in an unscripted way, the kata you prefer is irrelevent as the principles are key. Combine that with the Bunkai Jutsu series and you have all the inspiration and guidance you could wish for. Once you begin to understand and appreciate the depth of each form you find there aren't enough hours in day, but the greatest pleasure is when you realise you can now decipher the forms to specifically reflect YOUR requirements

All the wonderful stuff Iain has shared has enabled me to create a syllabus jam packed with Bunkai from Naihanchi all the way to second dan, and going totally pragmatic, a condensed system which incorporates full impact Bunkai application, impact development, stress training and more, which I labelled Naihanchi Combatives, an approach which Iain was kind enough to support through endorsement.

There has been a number of requests for Bunkai clarification recently and whilst there's nothing wrong with that as such I would say get the dvds, study, study study, practice, have ideas of your own, then you can say honestly that you know kata, which is surely how things should progress.

Thanks Iain, all the best

Mark

Fascinating thread, and it's interesting to read about how people apply themselves.

A question for Mark, is Naihanchi the only kata that you study or teach? Do you teach all three naihanchis or just shodan?

Hi Stephen,

I certainly do study and teach other forms. I only practice the Shodan version of Naihanchi.

As I posted, to study all the forms in the same depth that I studied Naihanchi would be impossible, I just don't have the time. I teach Passai, Seishan, Chinto up to 2nd Dan. Niseishi, Jion and Wanshu follow. I demo and teach Bunkai for all the forms we work, just not to the depth that we train Naihanchi. We also practice Jitte, although that form is not on the syllabus.

Practicing these other forms is also fun, thats important, it can't all be realistic life or death stuff, you can study to enjoy the experience.

I hope that helps

All the best

Mark

Hi everyone,

well it must be the month for it, 2 weeks ago one of my lady students was set upon by two other women whilst walking home alone after an evening with friends. There was verbal exchange to start then it kicked off, the one attacker pulled a handfull of hair out of my students head in which my student delivered a powerfull mae-geri to the attackers groin dropping her instantly, (which like above is what we teach),  while the other attacker had currently sank her teeth into my students arm and fingers in which my student used a shuto strike to the attackers throat, (again what we teach) dropping her attacker instantly while turning blue. Neither attacker were able or did get up in a hurry.

My student left her attackers lying in the gutter and went for medical treatment, she was left with some nasty bruises, loss of hair and nasty bite marks on her arms and cut teeth marks to her fingers.

My lady student is a yellow belt and only been training since march 2012.

Kind regards,

Jason

Might be worth a "sticky" this thread... as long as there are no legal implications!

Mark, yes that was useful thanks for that. And I do agree with you that kata isn't all about life and death, I enjoy 'art for art's sake' and all that, as well as the non-combative aspects of kata which are always worth considering.

With a range of forms students have their 'core' training, for example naihanchi, plus their 'own' kata to develop according to taste.

more questions..how long has the student been traiing?  How did the fight start. IE; chest push? verbal? was he sitting then stood up to meet the guy? Was it a sucker punch he didn't see coming? Was it one on one? Did he have to keep an eye on multiple people? Did he not know the aggresser was going to attack? Why didn't the student create space? Fortunately the student didn't get KO'd with that first punch on his left eyebrow, he pulled out a victory from the edge of defeat.

A sensei's student got in a fight with 3 hudlums on his way home from class. The first grabbed his shoulder and the student imediately responded by twisting the man's wrist and it ripped his sleeve but the man suffered a broken wrist. The student reflexively turned and kicked a side kick to the mid section of the second and as the third entered the fray, the student turned back to the front knocking the guy out.

 The student ran back to the dojo very pleased with himself and related the story of how perfect his karate training worked as he bested the 3 bad guys. His sensei frowned and said..."but you ripped your sleeve..."

mike23,

The fight started because  some toe-rag  tried to push drugs onto my student as he made his way home from college, he was walking to the train station, so I assume he was stood up.

Was it a sucker punch, possibly, s**t happens. I believe it was one on one, otherwise I would have stated that he banged out more than one person, so he didn't need to keep an eye on multiple people, 'cause it was one on one.

Did he know the aggressor was going to attack, er, no, if he had he would have thrown the first punch, he's inexperienced, not a moron.

Why didn't he create space. Because that would have played into the toe-rags hands. Untrained people need space to compensate for poor technique, we train close quarter impact and application, we want to condense the space, not create space and turn it into a slug-fest where luck is the deciding factor.

It is fortunate that he didn't get knocked out and he'll learn from it, but you seem to suggest from the tone of your post that in real violent altercations the good guy really shouldn't be getting hit, either initially or during said conflict.

How long has the student being training- check the original post.

As for your story, if the worst I got from defending myself was a ripped sleeve I'd call that a result, so, with all due respect the story you shared, in my opinion is absolute nonsense.  Whenever an individual is forced to use physical means to defend themselves the chances of coming away unscathed are small, only a clean pre-emptive strike would suffice.

Hi Jason,

I'm glad things worked out for your student. Violence, the giving of and recieving is a repugnant business, and all conscientious instructors should focus heavily on awareness and avoidence but sometimes things just go wrong, when they do you can only do your best and try to escape or find safety as soon as you're able, hopefully with the minimum damage to your person, in which case I'd settle for a ripped sleeve.

All the best

Mark

When people analyze a situation, especially in martial arts they need as much information as they can. When learning about how fights start, what kind of attacks are most common, the best defenses for common attacks,  researchers need as much detail of the situation. BOTH sides of the situation need to be analyzed.  Your second post clears up a lot of gaps  from the first.

We can now see that said student was walking when approached from the front or corner by someone asking him to buy drugs. When student said no and continued walking the assailant fired off a punch and took off.

This is more important than you think. Many people claim fights are against multiple attackers and we needed that information to understand.

I am not sorry your feelings got hurt. There might be others online who need more information than even I do.

Further questioning would reveal;

1. Had the student ever got in a fight before?
2. Did he win?
3. Those 2 questions answer the next question- Could he fight before he started karate?
4.  

Many instructors teach not to let someone into your space. Keep them at arms length. The idea is if they want to hit you they must step giving, you time to react.  If an altercation is still verbal, I know of no instructor but yourself who teach to move closer

 Why didn't he create space? Because that would have played into the toe-rags hands. Untrained people need space to compensate for poor technique, we train close quarter impact and application, and we want to condense the space, not create space and turn it into a slugfest where luck is the deciding factor.

I think you mean you want to condense space when/while fighting. But in the initial stage? Or verbal stage? It seems like you’re saying you want to get in close-go jaw to jaw with an aggressor.  Now, “I” know you didn’t mean that but that what it seems like.  When the guy asked your student to buy drugs, he should have at that point, gotten into the..orange zone? Right? At least know that this is not right, this guy is in my space…Shouldn’t he have made space or should he have said, no and closed space even before the attack?

In the pasted quote above you say, UNTRAINED people need to compensate for poor technique, now I know that wasn’t aimed toward me but you’re also saying that your new student is actually trained and has good technique?

 You shouldn’t respond with anger and a highbrow attitude. These are honest hard questions. My guess is that you asked your student ALL these questions when he told you his story and so we also can ask these same questions. With a little dry humor included! Serious? No on over there joked with him about his eye cut? What if it had been a bottle???What if it had been a knife???

Karate is about achieving perfection of technique. A ripped sleeve to an experienced trainee is not acceptable. Of course this is a story with a moral. You happen not to be receptive to it. Exhale and relax....

This seems to have got a little personal, but I'm not sure why. I know both Mark B and the student in question and I was there when he related his experience. The thrust of the OP was that old adage 'you get what you train for', as I understand it. We don't train to create space, rather we aim to control the space we're given. If it comes on top we close (cover/crash). In the initial, verbal, stages we're looking to loophole/de-escalate/pre-emptively strike, whichever is appropriate/possible. In this instance it went physical more quickly than expected. I must say I'd have been surprised by this response too. If I was offered gear and refused I'd expect the pusher to move on to his next potential client, not start wailing on me. Maybe I've lived a sheltered life...

The bit about perfection of technique doesn't ring true with me, I'm afraid. To me karate is about self-protection. Technique is secondary to principles. Poetry, flower arranging, making a cup of tea (I'm a Yorkshireman - tea shouldn't be green), these things are about the pursuit of perfection.

What does it mean to 'win' a fight? I see it as being similar to a pilot's idea of a good landing - any one you can walk away from.

Nice story to hear!
I've had to use my own training a couple of times, nothing a whole lot more serious than this, but it was nice to know that this stuff (when properly understood adn executed) does in fact work as advertised!

I've also known countless people who have had to use their stuff in the 20 years i've been doing Karate, plenty of this was int he era of sport Karate too! Even sport karate is a serious an advantage in some situations like this. The nice thing here is that your training was specifically geared towards self protection, and was simple - and so there was no mystery really, the training just took over, as it should.

Thanks Zach. This is as we see training - train for reality, and hope never to use it. If we do, know that we've done everything we could to avoid it. Our underlying principle is the KISS one.

Hi everyone,

The way i see it is that we are all here to learn, enjoy and achieve. The storys and info on this site is priceless and again here for us all to read, enjoy, learn, achieve and make new friends etc. Not everyone will agree with what the next person may say or describe but we all have to keep an open mind and take it on board anyway.

As we know from those who share ideas on this site it can be difficult to descibe in detail a bunkai move or get a full picture of a real life story when writing here, we are eager to get it on and share but sometimes we are pushed for time etc, so its easy to miss things out and it can cause confusion.

I say to my students hope for the best, train for the worst. Always be aware of your surroundings, expect the unexpected, never underestimate your opponent, and always be ready, however, none of us are perfect or super human we are just doing our best as martial artists, we are all going to the same place just using different technique and ideas.

As long as what we do works for us and most importantly believe in what we do then it is right, it does not matter if your a begginer or a very experienced martial artist who has trained for years and can really handle themselves, sometimes the worst happens and we do get caught of guard and when this happens we do our best with what we have got and been taught to defend ourselves.

If we are unlucky to end up in a street fight you have to accept the fact that you may end up getting hurt in some way or another, if attacked by multiple attackers then theres a real good chance, we have to be honest with ourselves here. if we come out unscathed then its a bonus.

In a street confrontaion is does not matter whos stronger etc, its the matter of whos smarter.

Kind regards,

Jason

Hi all,

mike23, don't worry about my feelings, they are uninjured. To further answer some of your questions, I don't  know the student in questions full combative history, I do know he is quietly spoken, even shy. He doesn't strike me as someone who makes a habit of this sort of thing.

Did he win? That depends on what your criteria is. He is relatively uninjured, has not been arrested, his training in karate allowed him to protect himself when attacked. A better ''win'' would have been him avoiding the situation,  altogether, failing that de-escalating the conflict would have been better, but as it transpired those things didn't happen, so he did the best he could, and I applaud him for that.

Could he already fight?  Like I said, I don't know.

I did misunderstand the issue you raised regarding creating space. During dialogue of course you should control the gap between yourself and your opponent, if however you lose the initiative then closing and striking is the preferred option, which Naihanchi teaches.

When I mentioned UNTRAINED people I certainly wasn't referring to you, I'm not sure how you could have thought that was the case. My student is LEARNING good technique, he is TRAINING and improving, and taking into account the short time he has been with us he is progressing well.

We clearly have a quite different view on what karate is, or should be. I say again, a ripped sleeve would be a perfectly acceptable outcome. Perfection of technique is something that belongs in the dojo, whilst practicing kata, real combat is a different animal altogether. 

I have no anger, and my breathing patterns are just fine, and yes, I do realise your story was one with a moral, its just I thought its moral was not a particularly useful one in this  instance.

Zach, appreciate the positive post. As Lee says, for applicable Kata application simple is best.

Jason, you are right, we can all benefit  from the exchange of ideas, and we have to respect other opinions. My problem was with the rather confrontational tone( as I read it). Never mind, we move forward.

All the best

Mark.

To Mark B.

'm glad to hear that your student is safe......I been in that similar scenario a few month back at work, but you can say thart I utilise Pinan sandan bunkai to hel p me and my partner to ease the situation without anyone getting hurt(Elbow, kiba dachi sequence variation I use).

The more we train, the better our reaction will be without thinking twice.

Aside from all the technical stuff, the thing that strikes me is that your student was able to access his "go button", he didn't freeze, and was able to deal with his own reactions to the event.  sometimes I suspect that in situations like this one, these are a big deal...possibly even a bigger deal than the type of physical training in some cases.

Do you think there is something  specific in your program that helped him do this, and If so, what do you guys credit the most (if you had to pick something) that might be a gem of wisdom for other people to take into their own training? A hard thing to answer, but do you think your student was a person who already would get this sort of thing "naturally", or did you need to instill it, or break through some kind of barrier with them?

Hi Zach,

I agree completely, the most satisfying part of this episode is that he was able to respond immediately, not allowing further injury to himself. It would have been preferable if he could have been pre-emptive, I think there was a momentary freeze there where he failed to appreciate he was about to face assault, but once he had to ''go''  the training he has done up to this point kicked in effectively.

Post event he seemed at peace with what had occurred, that may be his personality anyway, but we do discuss the principle of having right on our side, he certainly didn't start the conflict, and only did what he did out of necessity.

During training I have spoke many times about the difference between hitting a pad and hitting a person, even with honest belief that a pre-emptive strike may be appropriate. There is a line that must be crossed to achieve this, I think that can cause a type of freeze. Maybe this is what happened here, it will be one of the themes for Thursdays session.

It is hard to pick a specific thing that helped in this sort of situation. I don't believe it was much to do with actual techniques, I know from posts you have shared that you practice a ''go to'' flinch, thats essential if you lose the initiative. That would be the only actual application I'd suggest we place much emphasis on that is relevant here. We do drill it in several ways, with real impact (we just wear Boxing or well padded gloves).

I don't think the student got my approach any more than the other guys I teach. The principle of crashing forward into punches is definitely something that needs instilling.

I think the thing I place great emphasis on is education. I talk a great deal about the effects of fear and adrenalin, I use various personal experiences to support the information I share. I think having an understanding of what is happening both physically and mentally is  invaluable when placed under stress. It can be an event such as a physical assault, or other things. One of my students had a job interview for a significant promotion, he was suffering from fear and adrenalin, I explained that the principles were the same as we discuss during training, he took this on board and told me it was a great comfort. When involved in a violent confrontation the hardest punch or best technique in the world will be useless if fear renders you immobile. Combine education with honesty in training, and you have what I believe are vital elements. You see theres nothing special in what we do, I believe in train it hard, give honest feedback then go again.

I hope that is of some use,

All the best

Mark