Stunned

Yes this has been big (and very disapointing news) in the UK for a little while, I think most of us can't think where to start re 'discussions' around this terrible situation.

I only met Harry Cook once, and have never really read any of his written work but he seemed a very nice chap, with very good karate.

Not sure how this subject will be dealt with on this forum, perhaps Iain can outline the best way forward.

I'm not sure it should be discussed - I deliberately didn't name names - but I do think we should prepare for some media crap about "Is your child safe in a dojo?" etc etc

Priests endure these kind of 'guilty by profession' smears.  We would be treated no better if it sold more papers.

Gary

PS - It goes without saying that any minor inconvenience or implied smears the rest of us (in karate/MA) may face are as nothing when compared to the events endured by the victim. 

shoshinkanuk wrote:

Not sure how this subject will be dealt with on this forum, perhaps Iain can outline the best way forward.

I honestly don’t know. It’s a very tricky subject to address. As Gary says there are obviously going to be some media fall out; and I’d guess not just in the UK. However, I fear any conversations around it could fall into the trap of “salacious gossip”. While we always avoid discussing individuals and stick to issues, the two are so intertwined on this one that it’s hard to separate them i.e. this is not just some unheard of instructor with dubious qualifications.

One thing I would say is that we need to remember that there is the victim, their family, innocent family members on the other side, innocent students, etc involved here too. I don’t think it is something we can turn a blind eye too, but it’s far from being an easy topic to discuss as we must not add to the hurt of others.

If people want the details, they can do a web search to find them as the issue has reported by the press. So let’s have no discussion of the details here. I’ll leave the name in Shoshinkanuk’s post because I don’t want to be accused of censorship or worse trying to protect the perpetrator of these crimes. I also think that seeing as Harry Cook has pleaded guilty there is no need to protect someone’s reputation while they defend their innocence. As I say, I will be deleting any more posts with details of the case.

I tentatively suggest that any discussion be restricted to what can be done to prevent any reoccurrences, how issues like this could damage the reputation of the martial arts, and what can be done to repair that damage.

I also feel we should stay totally clear of the details in this case. That way the conversation will be “positive” as opposed to potentially opening the door for negative types to revel in the downfall of a once respected karateka (as some corners of the web are) and hence making light of the seriousness of the issue and forgetting the impact it has on many, many blameless people.

How does that sound?

Please be careful and sensitive to the wider issues.

All the best,

Iain

Sounds good to me.

Gary

shoshinkanuk wrote:

I only met him (my edit - Lee) once, and have never really read any of his written work but he seemed a very nice chap, with very good karate.

I think there's a useful discussion to be had right there. Only in comic books and movies do the bad guys make themselves known. We can't rely on black hats and facial scars in the real world.

How do you deal with threat recognition in your own clubs? Do you have workable alternatives to the flawed Stranger Danger concept?

It's a shame but I think a change is coming.  A few years ago we all rushed out and got CRB checks etc.  The public now expects that, in fact one parent asked me recently if ALL my senior members had been CRB checked, merely because they are in the building at the same time as children ...  (They haven't so her child didn't join)

But in this case I've no doubt the guilty party had been CRB checked, so the concept is demonstrably flawed.  It's closing the stable door after the horse has bolted as it only reveals problems after they have occured.

Gary

Hi gents,

I posted a link to the newspaper article on this topic, but my post was deleted. I was a little irritated and surprised, that this topic popped up again.

Iain Abernethy wrote:

As I say, I will be deleting any more posts with details of the case.
...

I also feel we should stay totally clear of the details in this case. That way the conversation will be “positive” as opposed to potentially opening the door for negative types to revel in the downfall of a once respected karateka (as some corners of the web are) and hence making light of the seriousness of the issue and forgetting the impact it has on many, many blameless people.

How does that sound?

Sounds good to me.

Regards Holger

ky0han wrote:

I posted a link to the newspaper article on this topic, but my post was deleted. I was a little irritated and surprised, that this topic popped up again.

I end up doing quite a bit of behind the sense moderation here to ensure the tone is kept. Sometimes I will write to people to explain why a post has been deleted, but sometimes I just don’t have the time.

I have to be honest and say I can’t recall your previous post on this issue … but if it was a direct link to the newspaper article I would have deleted it for the reasons stated above (i.e. opening the doors the insensitive and distasteful discussions found elsewhere on the web).

It’s not just what is discussed, but how it is discussed.

Gary’s initial post and Shoshinkanuk’s response set the tone and I’ve made my suggestion as to how this would need to progress. The thread can therefore stand. A simple “Have you heard about this?!” or something similar with links would have been deleted.

I hope that helps clarify and I can assure you that posts are never deleted for any other reason that maintaining the nature, tone and reputation of the board. There is therefore no need to be irritated.

All the best,

Iain

Hi All,

I’ve deleted a number of posts at the request of those who made them. The point was made that this is perhaps not the thread to discuss general issues relating to policies for teaching children, etc. Due to the seriousness of what sparked this thread, it was suggested that it does not feel right to discuss more general issues within it. I agree with that sentiment.

I therefore think that starting new threads on any related issues would be the way to go. That will ensure freer and more relevant discussion. If people could do that, that would be great.

In a related note I have been contacted about this issue by someone looking out for both families involved to thank us for our sensitivity in handling this issue. Thanks everyone.

All the best,

Iain

I'm kicking myself for starting the thread really.

I had no intention to gossip, more to warn UK instructors that there might be media negativity coming.

Seems that people are already well aware of the situation.

Iain, your call but I'd be happy if you deleted this thread.

Gary

Whilst I understand the sensitivity of such a subject, I feel it is important this thread remains - these things shouldn't be ignored IMO and any information in the public domain may just protect the vunerable a little more.

Unfortunatly Karate Instructors are human, it's never been any different.

Thanks Iain.

Gary, I didn't know about it until you posted so I'm glad you did.

Shoshinkan, you are right and these things should not be ignored. The situation affects many people beyond those directly involved and as such a well known figure in the martial arts world, it is right that this is in the open. Silence is not always the right response as in itself this can also be misinterpreted.

Hi All,

I’m totally happy with the tread as it stands and I think Gary did a good job of keeping the right tone in the way the issue was raised. Difficult to discuss things under this thread, but if it promotes related discussion under other threads and makes people aware of any impending fallout then it’s been a valuable thread. As I say, I think it’s been fairly and sensitively handled by everyone and I agree with Gavin that silence could be misinterpreted. I’ll keep a close eye on the tread and will close it when I feel it has served its purpose. Thanks once again.

All the best,

Iain

Where I am from (Long Island NY)  There has been a lot of this with martial art instructers in the past 10years or so. I should also say that it has happen with some school teachers as well and I am sure that it has happen in other endevers as well, they just did catch the media's eyes. It's really sad, but it does happen.    Before I let my kids alone with an adult I want to know where they are and what their doing.  Trust your in thought.  If somthing doesn't seem right, it probably isn't   What else can you do?

Dom 

I think that is exactly why this particular case is so shocking Dom. I've never met the man but I'm guessing if you had asked around, Harry Cook would have been put forward as a man of high integrity and impecable character.

As you say, as a parent, what can you do?

If I take my boys to clubs I stick around.

It might mean freezing my nuts off at the Rugby club or sweating at the glass-roofed swimming pool, but I'm there on site.  Maybe watching, maybe reading a book, but I think the fact that I'm there is important.

If they ever wanted to join a club where parents weren't welcome to stay I'd be very suspicious.

Gary

Gavin Mulholland wrote:

I've never met the man but I'm guessing if you had asked around, Harry Cook would have been put forward as a man of high integrity and impeccable character.

I have met him a few times as he did not live that far from me and hence we’d bump into each other at competitions, seminars, etc. He came across, as Gavin suggested, as someone of good character and he seemed very likeable. Obviously, the way he conducted himself publicly lead to him giving a widespread impression that was not representative of his true character.

I’m now talking in general terms and not about this case specifically. However, the point, as Lee mentioned earlier, that abusive and criminal types are pretty good at masking their character and giving off all the right impressions merits further discussion. Practically every serial killer ever captured is described by those who knew them as, “a normal guy who kept himself to himself”. They never say, “it was totally obvious to me that they were a killer”.

It’s also problematic if we start to suspect everyone on the basis that these people are hard to detect. The fact is that the majority of people are good hearted and it would be a shame to live our lives excepting the worst from everyone. However, always thinking the best about people is one thing that predatory people will exploit. I guess the key is always to acknowledge the possibility that people may not be what they seem and look for any signs? If there even are any?

One other general point is that predatory people can be very manipulative and are often highly intelligent. They can therefore be highly skilled at manipulating their victims and those around them in order to create confusion and deflect suspicion away from themselves. They are therefore not easy to spot and cover their tracks extremely well.

Some of the signs associated with Sociopathic behaviour are (taken from this webpage):

Superficial Charm, Manipulative, Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt, Shallow Emotions, Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them, Authoritarian, Conventional appearance, Goal of enslavement of their victim(s), Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love), Narcissism, Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life, Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim, and they are only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seek out situations where their tyrannical behaviour will be tolerated, condoned, or admired.

I highlighted the last one, because it would suggest that some quarters of the martial arts would be attractive to Sociopaths (again, I need to strongly emphasise I’m talking in general terms here and not about the case that sparked this thread). Perhaps one of the best things we can do as martial artists to keep dangerous people out of the martial arts generally is to ensure that the dojo is not an environment where “tyrannical behaviour will be tolerated, condoned, or admired”? I think we'd all agree that can be a problem.

All the best,

Iain

an update on this terrible situation-

http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-east ... z1jkiStLKi