Tactics against multiple opponents in kata?

Boris B wrote:

Since karate is a civilian fighting system, and as we know that the "bad boys" like to attack in numbers, shouldn't there be something in the structure of the katas that addresses this issue?

I think there is plenty in kata that relates to multiple assailants. Not “set piece” scenarios where the good guy defeats two or more carefully choreographed “attackers”, but through the techniques and concepts that relate perfectly to civilian self-protection scenarios.

As with a single enemy, we need to remember that it is the information within kata that we fight with, not the kata itself. To ensure that we can make use of that information we need to take it into live kata-based-sparring so we have experience of “the territory” and that we learn to apply the information in the ever-changing world of live combat. This process needs to include multiple enemies if it is to be complete.

The central methodology of kata is perfectly applicable to multiple enemies, but it’s only when we drill it live that it “comes alive”.

Worth noting that Gichin Funakoshi tells of practising escaping from multiple opponents in his book Karate-Do: My Way of Life: “I seldom had any great difficulty thrusting back a single opponent, but my difficulties increased greatly as the number of my opponents increased … It’s hard to think of a better way to learn how to defend oneself against more than one opponent”. Funakoshi practised against multiple opponents and here we have him endorsing live practise as the best way to do so.

In my dojo we have lots of drills for multiple opponents and there is rarely a sparring session that goes by without these drills being included. The methods the students use in these drills to position themselves, position their opponents, create space, break away from grips, etc are all straight out of kata.

So it is my view that the “process of kata” can certainly develop the skills needed to protect ourselves against multiple enemies. However, solo kata alone won’t cut it. Also those looking for “choreographed set pieces” are misunderstanding the nature of kata.

Relating this back to the thread it sprouted from; it is not within the structure of kata that we find how to deal with multiple enemies, but in the free flowing application of the techniques and principles of the kata in the environment.

In short, recipes have no nutritional value, but when you follow the recipe you create good food. Trying to deal with multiple opponents with the solo kata itself is tantamount to eating recipe books. Using the methodology of kata in live drills is “cooking”.

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy wrote:

'Worth noting that Gichin Funakoshi tells of practising escaping from multiple opponents in his book Karate-Do: My Way of Life: “I seldom had any great difficulty thrusting back a single opponent, but my difficulties increased greatly as the number of my opponents increased … It’s hard to think of a better way to learn how to defend oneself against more than one opponent”. Funakoshi practised against multiple opponents and here we have him endorsing live practise as the best way to do so.'

Hi Iain,

I'm struggling to see where/how Funakoshi in this statement is endorsing live practise as the best way to deal with multiple opponents,

shoshinkanuk wrote:

I'm struggling to see where/how Funakoshi in this statement is endorsing live practise as the best way to deal with multiple opponents

It’s because that quote is part of when he is talking about live drills against multiple opponents (as part of his Tegumi practise) and he concludes with the line, “It’s hard to think of a better way to learn how to defend oneself against more than one opponent”. The whole thing can be found on page 124 of the Kodansha version of the book.

I mentioned that because it is interesting to note that it was something Funakoshi practised and endorsed. However, even if he had not, or even if he has disagreed, live practise is needed if we are to be able to apply the methods of kata in a live environment. If people want to be able to escape from multiple opponents in live situations then they need to recreate those situations in practise. Real situations are not meticulously choreographed and hence training should not be either. That was the key point I wished to raise.

All the best,

Iain

yep see where your coming from Iain, I shall check out the book and come back to you on it.

I rarely look at kata as a multiple opponent excercise in the sense of  punching out several attackers .However I do see "escape" tactics from other methods( BA GUA //  AIKIJUTSU) in the movements like ESCAPING THE CIRCLE and MOVING DOWN THE CIRCLE and PIERCING THE LINE and using one attacker as a sheild against others.

I feel punching out more than one attacker happens more by lucky circumstance than design escape being the best option .

VIC

VIC wrote:

I rarely look at kata as a multiple opponent exercise in the sense of punching out several attackers.

I don’t look at it that way either. But sadly quite a few do.

Punching anything in range as you move can be a good way to ensure you maintain and create space (as Funakoshi describes). Escaping from grips also ensures that you don’t get fixed in one place and swamped. Being able to move yourself and others into the most advantageous position is also another key skill. All of which are found in kata. I would also see the escape tactics you report in other methods as also being found within kata too.

VIC wrote:

I feel punching out more than one attacker happens more by lucky circumstance than design escape being the best option.

Totally agree with that. The past masters are also pretty clear that flight is better than fight. Live drills really bring this home because if you try to “fight” or fixate on any one enemy for too long you get swamped.

Karate (being a civil tradition) places an emphasis on escape as opposed to fighting to the finish. So we are not talking about knocking all the bad guys out (as it often displayed in competitive “bunkai” demos) but using the methods of kata to facilitate escape. Those familiar with my bunkai drills (as on the Pinan / Heian Drills and Beyond Bunkai DVDs) will know the vast majority end in damage and escape, as opposed to fight to the end. Defiantly the way to go, especially when multiples are involved.

All the best,

Iain

Dear Borris,

in kata you turn, you defend against attacks from the side and so on. All these movements do not make much sense if you have just one attacker in front of you. It is the idea that you defend against multiple attackers! The idea!

It is another thing if you can structure a real figth on the basis of kata practice. There are kata drills working on this as Iain describes.

When performing kata you learn how to move, you build up the relevant muscles and so on. Kata is form, but a form that lives, that is differs from time to time you perform it. Praticinsg kata forms the one who practices it - over years of practice.

It is zanshin what counts before you perform the first movement in the kata. An attack from all eight karate corners has to be taken into consideration.

And if it comes to some practical application, very simple, basic movement are worth being performed. Attacked by two persons, you can let the one in front of you "swallow" your pint of beer, do mawate and stick a gyaku-zuki in the throat of the person in your back, turn again (mawate) and kick mae-geri under the balls of Mr.1 who has difficulities to see you, since he has bee in his eyes. This is an application of a very simple kata. But you have to recognize that the offense starts before your attack! The mental side of doing traditional karate is thus so important!

It is a good exercise to apply kata sequences against at least tow partners, you should have not much time to pause between finishing the first and defend against the second. If you improve you´ll make it more and more freee style. In jiyu-jitsu you do this.

But it is still a form, a training method. Real fighting is not predictable. So forms form you, but you are a butterfly that behaves lke the wind blows. (pardon my bad English;-

By doing kata the right way you can form your body and technique (gi and tai) but also your mind (shin). Since I came across different self-defense arts, I found out that most movements are known to us by kata (application is hidden). In the end, you have to find the answers yourself by practicing kata application,

Harald

Harald wrote:

In kata you turn, you defend against attacks from the side and so on. All these movements does not make much sense if you have just one attacker in front of you. It is the idea that you defend against multiple attackers! The idea!

This is a common view, but it’s not one that I accept. The angles in kata represent the angles you should be at to the opponent (who is generally in front of you).

We all know that getting an angle on the enemy gives us a big advantage. Seeing as there is no other person to record the required angle in the solo kata, you need to record that angle relative to yourself. The motions get linked together and you have a kata, but it is not an imaginary fight against multiple opponents attacking from all angles; it is a record of motions to be applied against any given person and the angles at which those techniques should be applied.

If the kata goes straight then the movement should be applied to the front of the enemy. If the kata goes at forty-five degree then the movement should be applied at a forty-five degree angle to the enemy. If the kata goes to the side then the movement should be applied to the side of the enemy. If the kata does a movement to the rear, it means that you should be behind the enemy. This works consistently well in every kata I have ever looked at and it is reflected in the writings of Motobu (in reference to Naihanchi) and Mabuni (in reference to the Pinans).

Harald wrote:

It is zanshin what counts before you perform the first movement in the kata. An attack from all eight karate corners has to be taken into consideration.

Zanshin (awareness) would have been better employed if we did not get surrounded (as is seen in many “bunkai” demos) in the first place. If we are aware of people at angles, we should position ourselves so they are not at angles. We need to move so they are to our front, but we are at an angle to them (i.e. they are to our front but their front is not facing us). That way we have the best possible position. The “eight corners view” has us assume we are not allowed to move and accept a hugely inferior position as a given.

Harald wrote:

Attacked by two persons, you can let the one in front of you "swallow" your pint of beer, do mawate and stick a gyaku-zuki in the throat of the person in your back, turn again (mawate) and kick mae-geri under the balls of Mr.1 who has difficulities to see you, since he has bee in his eyes. This is an application of a very simple kata.

The trouble with the above scenario is that person one is behind you and, assuming he does not attack first (which having got behind you was probably his intention), he is sure to move the instant you attack his accomplice. You probably won’t have the time to turn and punch. And how do you know to turn and punch? How do you know the enemy is behind you? And if you do know he is there, why did you let them get behind you? Why not move yourself so you are not surrounded?

The best option would be to have awareness such that the guy does not get behind you in the first place. As soon as you see such an attempt, you move yourself so both people are still in view during the dialogue stages.

If someone does get behind you in the fight (and you may only know when they hit you), then you need to move so they are not behind you. If you turn on the spot to face them, and in the process of doing so expose your back to all the others (as per the above example), then this is not tactically smart. We have to practise moving so we don’t get surrounded or expose our backs.

We drill live multiple enemy drills all the time, including without any warning. Consistently the key is not to “fight” but to move yourself so that you are not surrounded and so you can escape. You need to hit anything that comes close and keep moving. Stay on one spot or engage with one enemy for too long and you get swamped.

The techniques of kata work well in this environment and the ability to get an angle on a given enemy while tactically positioning ourselves is vital. If we see the angles of the kata representing the angles we need to be to the enemy, the kata makes much more sense and the practise of those methods with a partner (bunkai training) helps develop the skills needed to tactically position ourselves in live drills with multiple opponents (kata-based-sparring) and hence we are better prepared to deal with multiple enemies in real situations.

If we see the angles of the kata representing the angle of attack, then there is an assumption of failed awareness, poor tactical positioning and even the need for a “sixth sense” as we turn to deal with techniques and enemies that were previously unseen. And if they were seen, why don't we move to avoid being surrounded?

The idea that the karateka is at the centre of a mob in kata is common, but it is not how kata is supposed to work as a good look at kata application, the reality of such situations, and the writings of Motobu and Mabuni make clear.

All the best,

Iain

I think Kata give you the opportunity to learn and practise skills that can be used in many situations. In a 1 on 1 or a multiple to 1 situation, I think as has been said you will only ever deal with 1 opponent at a time, even if there are more than 1. You deal with the closest threat, assess, flee or deal with the next threat until you are not there or they are not there.

I don't think you can successfully and swiftly deal with 2 or more at once, if you try then your power, focus and intent etc are divided and you are at a disadvantage. Reality (get yourself in the middle of a few people) will show you that it's 1 at a time and get out of there.

I think kata can be easily over analysed. People can look for things in Kata just for sake of it, making it more complicated than necessary. I like to take a more basic philosophy. No mystical trickery, just straight forward body mechanics and use of techniques to disrupt the opponent and deliver destructive techniques. Now there is no reason you cannot use these techniques against more than 1 opponent, however I believe it would be only 1 at a time.

The other elements awareness and positioning are separate skills that need to be developed over time, via scenario  training or "Live drills".

Just a thought.

Cheers

k

Iain Abernethy wrote:

If the kata does a movement to the rear, it means that you should be behind the enemy.

Hi Iain, I am totally bought into the concept that in kata  movement is done in relation to your opponent, but could you explain the particular line above... I am struggling to think of an example.

Thanks

Tom Runge

Iain Abernethy wrote:

If the kata does a movement to the rear, it means that you should be behind the enemy.

Th0mas wrote:

I am totally bought into the concept that in kata  movement is done in relation to your opponent, but could you explain the particular line above... I am struggling to think of an example.

Hi Tom,

A good example would be in Pinan Shodan (Heian Nidan) with the soto-uke and front kick to the rear (side kick and “back fist” in Shotokan). The motion is done by turning to the rear so it represents we should be behind the enemy when doing the technique. The application is being behind the enemy, grabbing their shoulder, and kicking out the knee from the rear to take the enemy over. That technique (and the preceding three strikes) is the first bit of bunkai I teach my students and the whole drill (drill one on The Pinan / Heian Series: The complete fighting system DVD) helps people understand angles as it involves moving to the side and then behind. I hope that helps?

All the best,

Iain