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JD
JD's picture
Wado ryu - Chinto kata

Hi All,

I have a question regards Chinto Kata and the stance towards the end where you balance on 1 leg with the kicking leg chambered behind the supporting leg in readiness for the Maegeri, Katashi dachi or in layman's terms a variation of crane stance. 

A friend of mine showed me an article which seemed very detailed giving information about Motobu, Ohtsuka and Funakoshi, within this write up it mentions of how Wado ryu's method was to always have both feet planted on the floor whilst executing techniques in kata where possible, aside from the jump in Godan and the lifting of the legs in Naifanchi (both of which are quick and momentary) this theme seems to ring true. It then goes on to say, that orginally, instead of chambering the leg in Katashi dachi behind the supporting leg, the kicking leg would slide up and next to the supporting leg (I assume in musubi dachi) and then launch from there. When drilling this, I find bringing the kicking foot alongside as you do the first double block (soto uke and gedan barai) is the only way it works. 

Has anyone heard of this before? 

Was it orginally this way and changed for some reason? 

Does it effect the application doing it this way?

Is keeping both feet planted whilst executing techniques a theme through Wado Ryu? 

It's all learning and I see this as quite a significant variation in a kata I've practised for many years, any info and general thoughts are appreciated. My friend asked if I knew anything about it and I replied with a firm 'not a clue' but I said 'I know where to ask' so here I am.

Best regards, 

JD

Josh Pittman
Josh Pittman's picture

I found Iain's interpretation of the crane stance plausible. My guess would be that lifting the leg suggests a knee strike, while a style that doesn't lift the leg at that point isn't adding that strike at that point. Does it change the application? Maybe, but then again, the fact that the knee strike isn't in the form wouldn't mean you couldn't use one. There's my entirely non-committal response for you:)

Marc
Marc's picture

JD wrote:

orginally, instead of chambering the leg in Katashi dachi behind the supporting leg, the kicking leg would slide up and next to the supporting leg (I assume in musubi dachi) and then launch from there.

Has anyone heard of this before?

An interesting observation, and one I haven't heard before, but it seems to make sense. The crane stance looks very much like the leg being pulled up half way into a kick. It is very similar to the position in Pinan/Heian-Yondan or Kushanku/Kanku-Dai before the kicks to the side followed by an elbow strike into the open hand.

BTW: I'm interested in the term "katashi dachi". Do you happen to have a translation/kanji at hand for "katashi"? I looked up katashi in the dictionary and it translates as "hard/difficult" or "hard/solid/tough" depending on the kanji used. Difficult kind of makes sense, as the stance requires some skill and strength to keep it balanced. Solid on the other hand is almost the opposite of what I would associate with standing on one leg.

JD wrote:

Was it orginally this way and changed for some reason?

I don't know about the original version. But changes happened all the time from teacher to student and from style to style. For example most styles turn sideways and do a front kick, whereas Shotokan has no turn and does a side snap kick (yoko-keage). In Shotokan we assume the crane stance with manji-gamae (the combined low+high "block"), then we stack our hands at the hip on the side of the supporting leg (koshi-gamae), then we throw a backfist together with the kick and continue.

Similarly in Pinan/Heian-Yondan and Kushanku/Kanku-Dai there are quite a few variations on the theme of side kick followed by elbow strike. Some styles stop for a second when the knee is up before they kick, some swiftly move through that position. Some land in front stance, some land in cat stance. And so on.

JD wrote:

Does it effect the application doing it this way?

I don't think it changes the application. Whether you count the knie lift and the kick as a seperate positions or you flow through it in one swift move, in both cases you have the knee and the kick.

In a real fight you wold not stop at any point. You would flow from one method into the next (not necessarily in the order the kata suggests) until the enemy is unable to resume their attack.

The way I see it (Shotokan version, named Gankaku), standing on one leg while executing 5 techniques (hiza-geri, manji-uke, koshi-gamae, uraken, yoko-keage) is the kata's way of telling me that I have a bunch of options that I can apply in any order appropriate. It certainly does not want me to fight on one leg for more than a split second. I understand it as: "...and add a knee strike whenever it feels useful."

JD wrote:

Is keeping both feet planted whilst executing techniques a theme through Wado Ryu?

I don't know enough about Wado to recognise it as a style specific theme. But keeping both feet planted while executing techniques generally seems like a clever idea. And if you do lift a leg (knee strike, kick, sweep) make sure you have a firm grip on your opponent to borrow their balance.

JD wrote:

It's all learning and I see this as quite a significant variation in a kata I've practised for many years, any info and general thoughts are appreciated.   

It would be a significant change to the performance of the kata, although not necessarily to its application.

All the best,

Marc

Marc
Marc's picture

Here's my take on the application of the sequence in question (starting at 3:45):

JD
JD's picture

Hi Josh,

Josh Pittman wrote:

There's my entirely non-committal response for you:)

Haha, not at all! I appreciate your feed back and some interesting points, thanks for adding the link - saved me searching :-) Like you say, just because a style doesn't visibly display the knee doesn't mean it can't be added or used from the position I described above. 

Thanks for your thoughts...

Best regards,  JD

JD
JD's picture

Hi Marc,

Marc wrote:

It is very similar to the position in Pinan/Heian-Yondan or Kushanku/Kanku-Dai before the kicks to the side followed by an elbow strike into the open hand.

Exactly, that's a similar sequence that highlights what I tried to describe as this varied method. 

Marc wrote:

BTW: I'm interested in the term "katashi dachi". Do you happen to have a translation/kanji at hand for "katashi"? I looked up katashi in the dictionary and it translates as "hard/difficult" or "hard/solid/tough" depending on the kanji used. Difficult kind of makes sense, as the stance requires some skill and strength to keep it balanced. Solid on the other hand is almost the opposite of what I would associate with standing on one leg.

I don't Have the Kanji for 'Katashi dachi' but I do know it's basic translation is 'firmness' and similar to what you found, it's also used as a boy/males name in some countries too. I've added a link to a wiki page that lists Shotokan stances and number 17 on the list has katashi dachi as 'crane stance', so it seems it's a used term for describing that particular technique/position within Gankaku/Chinto. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shotokan_techniques

I do agree with you regards associating 'difficult' with that stance, however not so much with solid, seems anything but when trying to stand like a flamingo! :-)

Marc wrote:

I don't know about the original version. But changes happened all the time from teacher to student and from style to style. 

Absolutely, it's maybe something that a particular instructor had an interpretation on and for one reason or another it got dropped through time. 

Marc wrote:

In a real fight you wold not stop at any point. You would flow from one method into the next (not necessarily in the order the kata suggests) until the enemy is unable to resume their attack.

Without doubt and an important point to not lose site of. I think for me I'm interested to know if it effects the application (Which I now know it doesn't necessarily do so), but also I'm keen to understand it from a solo performance point of view, how it also aesthetically changes kata. 

Marc wrote:

In Shotokan we assume the crane stance with manji-gamae (the combined low+high "block")

Manji-gamae... that describes that double block with much more ease than my attempt :-) learning all the time

Thanks for the link, it's nice to see your use of the application and how you execute that sequence. appreciate your help and response.

Best regards,

JD

Marc
Marc's picture

JD wrote:

Marc wrote:

BTW: I'm interested in the term "katashi dachi". Do you happen to have a translation/kanji at hand for "katashi"? I looked up katashi in the dictionary and it translates as "hard/difficult" or "hard/solid/tough" depending on the kanji used. Difficult kind of makes sense, as the stance requires some skill and strength to keep it balanced. Solid on the other hand is almost the opposite of what I would associate with standing on one leg.

I don't Have the Kanji for 'Katashi dachi' but I do know it's basic translation is 'firmness' and similar to what you found, it's also used as a boy/males name in some countries too. I've added a link to a wiki page that lists Shotokan stances and number 17 on the list has katashi dachi as 'crane stance', so it seems it's a used term for describing that particular technique/position within Gankaku/Chinto. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shotokan_techniques

I do agree with you regards associating 'difficult' with that stance, however not so much with solid, seems anything but when trying to stand like a flamingo! :-)

I have searched the net for "katashi-dachi" and found that it is not as widely used for the stance as "tsuru-ashi-dachi" ("crane foot stance") or "sagi-ashi-dachi" ("heron foot stance"). However, "katashi" might just be a contraction of "kata-ashi", which I have found more often. Written as "片" "kata" would mean "one-sided" or "one of a pair". So "片足立ち" (kata-ashi-dachi) would mean "one-legged stance" which is exactly what this is.

JD wrote:

I think for me I'm interested to know if it effects the application (Which I now know it doesn't necessarily do so), but also I'm keen to understand it from a solo performance point of view, how it also aesthetically changes kata.

From an aesthetic point of view flowing through it might not be as pleasing to the eye. From an athletic point of view it certainly is much more demanding to present a balanced one-legged stance and execute several techniques while doing it. In the Shotokan version we even start with a more or less straight supporting leg and then bend the knee to sink a little while moving the hands into koshi-gamae. Also the way it makes the body feel when you are able to do it without losing your balance is rewarding. Put simply: The stance is kind'a'cool.

JD wrote:

Marc wrote:

In Shotokan we assume the crane stance with manji-gamae (the combined low+high "block")

Manji-gamae... that describes that double block with much more ease than my attempt :-) learning all the time

Yes, "manji-gamae" or "manji-uke" are both used interchangibly in my dojo. The former meaning "swastika posture" and the latter meaning "swastika receiver" (or "block", if you prefer). "Manji" is used because the posture kind of resembles the shape of the kanji "卍".

JD wrote:
 

Thanks for the link, it's nice to see your use of the application and how you execute that sequence. appreciate your help and response.

I'm glad it was useful.

Take care,

Marc

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

JD wrote:
I have a question regards Chinto Kata and the stance towards the end where you balance on 1 leg with the kicking leg chambered behind the supporting leg in readiness for the Maegeri, Katashi dachi or in layman's terms a variation of crane stance … It then goes on to say, that originally, instead of chambering the leg in Katashi dachi behind the supporting leg, the kicking leg would slide up and next to the supporting leg (I assume in musubi dachi) and then launch from there.

In Otsuka’s book (founder of Wado), the photos of that position do not show the foot hooked behind the leg (a common variation), but the instep is touching the back of the leg. The text says:

“Turn to the left and raise the left leg, bend the knee and place the foot near the right knee, touching slightly … The bent leg should only touch the standing leg slightly.”

So, from a Wado perspective, the foot would not be hooked in tightly, but instead lightly touching. The photos show that the foot is lightly touching the back of the knee.

I’ve been taught it that way, and to place the ankle against the inside of the knee. I prefer placing the ankle on the inside of the knee; so that’s how I teach it and practise it.

It’s important remember the knee lift – irrespective of where the foot ends up – is not immediately followed by the kick:

1) Knee rises as arm to the back rises up and the one to the front goes down.

2) Leg stays up, as arms are brought to the back hip.  

3) Kick goes out back lead arm does “lower sweep”.

The fact there is a gap (2) between the knee rising and the kick occurring would suggest it has is own independent purpose. Combine that with the arm position on that lift, and a knee strike would seem to be the obvious interpretation.

That leaves us with the question of why the foot lightly touching the back of the knee is encouraged by some. I see two explanations for that:

1) For the solo-performance of the kata, the foot lightly touching the back of the knee will mean it is nicely aligned for the following kick (foot directly under the kicking thigh and close to the supporting leg) as the knee moves out to deliver the front kick. This is doubly true for the styles that use some form of side kick because the foot position is set for the kick … however, Wado uses a front kick so that does not apply here. Either way, it is therefore is something of a preparation for the following kick, and although the knee may have a combative function, the light foot touch during the knee does not; it is a “teaching aid”. I can follow this thinking, but I don’t personally adopt it.

2) A combative reason could be that the intent of the knee was to attack the enemy’s legs. We therefore need the force to go forward (deep into the meat of the thigh) as opposed to up. If the ankle is next to the knee that will ensure that. If the foot moves past the knee, the force is now going upward and could mean a glancing blow. It could be that encouraging students to lightly touch the foot on the supporting leg is a good “tactile prompt” to ensure the right direction of force.

For me and mine, we put the ankle next to the leg such that the foot is not is not touching anything. We do this to ensure the right direction of force when the knee is being used to attack the legs. We don’t adopt the “teaching prompt” of the foot touching the supporting leg. When drilling the bunkai, we are happy to knee to the groin too, but we are of the view the kata’s example is showing a knee to the legs; as an accompaniment to the kick to the legs that follows.

JD wrote:
Is keeping both feet planted whilst executing techniques a theme through Wado Ryu?

No. Like all styles of karate, there are methods for ensuring stability where the feet are planted, but there are also methods where the feet are not firmly planted i.e. kicks, knees, jumps, stances with the heels off, etc. One of Otsuka’s teachers was Choki Motobu and he was firmly against having the heels up (“floating foot”) in stances like cat-stance, but it seems Otuska did not share this concern because those stances are included in Wado.

All the best,

Iain

Marc
Marc's picture

I like Iain's reasoning that touching the other knee with the foot helps teaching correct knee alignment and direction.

The variations of where and if the foot touches the knee remind me of Naihanchi/Tekki's returning wave kick (nami-gaeshi) which in some styles touches the inside of the other knee or thigh and in others the foot moves up in front of the other knee. It's a variation but we can be certain that in application the foot is always meant to kick the opponents leg, not our own. Maybe tapping the foot against your leg was a teaching aid to develop the snappy feeling the kick requires.  

JD
JD's picture

Hi Marc,

Marc wrote:

I have searched the net for "katashi-dachi" and found that it is not as widely used for the stance as "tsuru-ashi-dachi" ("crane foot stance") or "sagi-ashi-dachi" ("heron foot stance"). However, "katashi" might just be a contraction of "kata-ashi", which I have found more often. Written as "片" "kata" would mean "one-sided" or "one of a pair". So "片足立ち" (kata-ashi-dachi) would mean "one-legged stance" which is exactly what this is.

Yeah I don't think it's as widely used, thinking about the minor difference from Katashi dachi and Kata-ashi dachi (being the extra 'a') it might be plausible that somewhere down the line a person has made a grammatical mistake and, like many things, it's wrongly being used by those who haven't stopped to study the kanji and direct translation of the word. Going on what you say about 'Kata-ashi dachi' it would be reasonable to assume that's the correct and most fitting term due to it's meaning, so much so I think I'll use that for the stance in the future. Thanks!

Marc wrote:

From an aesthetic point of view flowing through it might not be as pleasing to the eye. From an athletic point of view it certainly is much more demanding to present a balanced one-legged stance and execute several techniques while doing it. In the Shotokan version we even start with a more or less straight supporting leg and then bend the knee to sink a little while moving the hands into koshi-gamae. Also the way it makes the body feel when you are able to do it without losing your balance is rewarding. Put simply: The stance is kind'a'cool.

Yeah I agree from an athletic prespective it is more demanding and for that reason, when training only the solo form, it's better for coordination, balance and ability.

I've always admired the Shotokan variation of using the Yoko geri instead of a Maegeri and also the slow tension in which you pull back the downward arm of the manji-gamae block before launching, whilst I'm not a person who's bothered about looking good for competition purposes, I do feel it looks good in general and is 'cool' to perform too :-) 

Marc wrote:

Yes, "manji-gamae" or "manji-uke" are both used interchangibly in my dojo. The former meaning "swastika posture" and the latter meaning "swastika receiver" (or "block", if you prefer). "Manji" is used because the posture kind of resembles the shape of the kanji "卍".

Interesting name and i can see the connection to the swastika symbol, obviously there's always a negative vibe to the swastika, however, it does the job of describing the double block well. Again I appreciate the info and feedback, certainly feel like I've got my monies worth from your replies. 

Best regards and hope you have a good X mas and New year!

JD

JD
JD's picture

Hi Iain,

Iain wrote:

In Otsuka’s book (founder of Wado), the photos of that position do not show the foot hooked behind the leg (a common variation), but the instep is touching the back of the leg. The text says:

“Turn to the left and raise the left leg, bend the knee and place the foot near the right knee, touching slightly … The bent leg should only touch the standing leg slightly.”

So, from a Wado perspective, the foot would not be hooked in tightly, but instead lightly touching. The photos show that the foot is lightly touching the back of the knee.

That's interesting, gives me the most solid reference coming from Otsuka himself. 

Iain wrote:

I’ve been taught it that way, and to place the ankle against the inside of the knee. I prefer placing the ankle on the inside of the knee; so that’s how I teach it and practise it.

I've always been taught the same way you execute it, with the ankle placed behind the knee. Until that article and your above post, I'd never heard of anything different.

Iain wrote:
 

It’s important remember the knee lift – irrespective of where the foot ends up – is not immediately followed by the kick:

1) Knee rises as arm to the back rises up and the one to the front goes down.

2) Leg stays up, as arms are brought to the back hip.  

3) Kick goes out back lead arm does “lower sweep”.

The fact there is a gap (2) between the knee rising and the kick occurring would suggest it has is own independent purpose. Combine that with the arm position on that lift, and a knee strike would seem to be the obvious interpretation.

Absolutely, it's there for a reason and like you highlight above, it's pause whilst another technique is being executed must mean it's got an independent application/use and the kata is making a suggestion. Totally agree on it being a knee, if in Otsuka's description and picture it stated the foot/ankle to be firmly wedged behind the knee, maybe it could be argued it's suggesting a lower kick to the back of an opponents leg/knee? But obviously that's not the case.   

Iain wrote:

1) For the solo-performance of the kata, the foot lightly touching the back of the knee will mean it is nicely aligned for the following kick (foot directly under the kicking thigh and close to the supporting leg) as the knee moves out to deliver the front kick. This is doubly true for the styles that use some form of side kick because the foot position is set for the kick … however, Wado uses a front kick so that does not apply here. Either way, it is therefore is something of a preparation for the following kick, and although the knee may have a combative function, the light foot touch during the knee does not; it is a “teaching aid”. I can follow this thinking, but I don’t personally adopt it.

Yeah I can understand how it's a good preparation for the side kick. Going off subject slightly, why do some styles use the side kick at the same points others prefer front kicks, is there a particular reason? 

Iain wrote:

2) A combative reason could be that the intent of the knee was to attack the enemy’s legs. We therefore need the force to go forward (deep into the meat of the thigh) as opposed to up. If the ankle is next to the knee that will ensure that. If the foot moves past the knee, the force is now going upward and could mean a glancing blow. It could be that encouraging students to lightly touch the foot on the supporting leg is a good “tactile prompt” to ensure the right direction of force.

Again makes good sense, a protocol implemented to restrict or guide a pratitioner to use the knee as a thrusting/pushing technique to the leg or groin instead of a rising/swinging knee - i.e to the body and face. Something I hadn't even thought of and if it were to be true, it shows how in-depth and methodical they were when creating the solo system as a means of logging kata... Clever!

Iain wrote:

For me and mine, we put the ankle next to the leg such that the foot is not is not touching anything. We do this to ensure the right direction of force when the knee is being used to attack the legs. We don’t adopt the “teaching prompt” of the foot touching the supporting leg. When drilling the bunkai, we are happy to knee to the groin too, but we are of the view the kata’s example is showing a knee to the legs; as an accompaniment to the kick to the legs that follows.

Yeah I can't imagine the knee working with any effectiveness if the foot of the attacking knee is trapped behind the supporting leg. I agree regards the knee to the leg primarily, a solid dead leg is more use in the long run than a shot to the groin, just my opinion though - when an oponents adrenaline is flowing I've seen groin strikes been brushed off and are slightly less immediately debiltating and damaging than people believe.

Iain wrote:

No. Like all styles of karate, there are methods for ensuring stability where the feet are planted, but there are also methods where the feet are not firmly planted i.e. kicks, knees, jumps, stances with the heels off, etc. One of Otsuka’s teachers was Choki Motobu and he was firmly against having the heels up (“floating foot”) in stances like cat-stance, but it seems Otuska did not share this concern because those stances are included in Wado.

That's interesting that two major figures in karate would have such a different view on foot positions, maybe Otsuka preferred the heel off due to the traditional Ju Jitsu element within Wado Ryu? I know when throwing a person sometimes you need that extra leverage or twist to get a person over that point of balance and as a natural byproduct a person would tend to lift a heel off? Just a thought, I'm probably way off.

Thanks for the guidance, I sometimes struggle with smaller technical matters, such as my orginal question, however I know if I ask on here I'll get a straight and highly accurate answer. 

Best regards

JD

Marc
Marc's picture

JD wrote:
Going off subject slightly, why do some styles use the side kick at the same points others prefer front kicks, is there a particular reason?

In his (German) book "Shotokan - überlieferte Texte - historische Untersuchungen - Band II" (historical research and texts on Shotokan, vol. II) Henning Wittwer discusses how and why influencial people like Gichin Funakoshi, his son Yoshitaka Funakoshi and others deliberately changed individual kata movements.

He quotes passages from a writing by Hironoshi Motonobu, who was a student of both Gichin and Yoshitaka. One example are the kicks in Heian/Pinan-Yondan that are followed by the elbow strikes. Appearently, Yoshitaka told them as side kicks (yoko-geri) without turning the body whereas Gichin told them as front kicks (mae-geri) after turning the body. When he asked Gichin about the variation, he replied that Motonobu should practice the yoko-geri version at this point in this kata because it was a challenging new technique to master. The mae-geri version was something that he was already quite able to do, as he had already learned it in Heian-Nidan/Pinan-Shodan. So even if the more difficult yoko-geri would kind of break the flow of motion and breathing, it would be beneficial to study it. With more practice this strange feeling of a broken flow would gradually decrease.

Possibly a similar change has been made with respect to kata Chinto/Gankaku in the Shotokan version.

In application it really makes no difference. The kata tells me to kick the enemy in the knee/leg. Whether that kick would look more like a side kick or a front kick depends entirely on distance and relative positioning in the particular moment. The opponent probably doesn't care which type of kick dislocated his knee. So why should I. - To be clear, I'm not suggesting that when performing the solo form my technique may be sloppy. Far from it. My aim should be perfection. But any perfect kick will do the trick.

All the best,

Marc

Marc
Marc's picture

JD wrote:

I've always admired the Shotokan variation of using the Yoko geri instead of a Maegeri and also the slow tension in which you pull back the downward arm of the manji-gamae block before launching, whilst I'm not a person who's bothered about looking good for competition purposes, I do feel it looks good in general and is 'cool' to perform too :-)

I like it too, but the mae-geri version feels to me a little more practical and also significantly easier on the hip joints (became an increasingly important issue since I reached my mid-fourties).

JD wrote:

Marc wrote:

Yes, "manji-gamae" or "manji-uke" are both used interchangibly in my dojo. The former meaning "swastika posture" and the latter meaning "swastika receiver" (or "block", if you prefer). "Manji" is used because the posture kind of resembles the shape of the kanji "卍".

Interesting name and i can see the connection to the swastika symbol, obviously there's always a negative vibe to the swastika, however, it does the job of describing the double block well.

Yeah, sadly the Nazis for ever ruined a perfectly positive shape.

Here's the introduction of the Wikipedia article on "Swastika":

The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is a geometrical figure and an ancient religious icon in the cultures of Eurasia, used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indian religions. In the Western world, it was a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck until the 1930s, when it became a feature of Nazi symbolism as an emblem of Aryan race identity and, as a result, was stigmatized by association with ideas of racism and antisemitism. The name swastika comes from Sanskrit (Devanagari:. स्वस्तिक) meaning "conducive to well being or auspicious".

Luckily the Japanese term "manji" doesn't have that fascist connotation and is therefore fine to be used in the context of karate.

All the best,

Marc

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi JD,

Great follow up posts. Just to clarify something:

Iain wrote:
I’ve been taught it that way, and to place the ankle against the inside of the knee. I prefer placing the ankle on the inside of the knee; so that’s how I teach it and practise it.

JD wrote:
I've always been taught the same way you execute it, with the ankle placed behind the knee. Until that article and your above post, I'd never heard of anything different.

The way I do it has the ankle touching the inside of the knee. Neither the ankle nor the foot is behind the knee though. In the above quote, you said you did it “the same way you execute it” but them continued “with the ankle placed behind the knee”. The way I do it does not have the ankle behind the knee. I thought I should clarify.

All the best,

Iain

JD
JD's picture

Hi Marc,

Marc wrote:

In his (German) book "Shotokan - überlieferte Texte - historische Untersuchungen - Band II" (historical research and texts on Shotokan, vol. II) Henning Wittwer discusses how and why influencial people like Gichin Funakoshi, his son Yoshitaka Funakoshi and others deliberately changed individual kata movements.

He quotes passages from a writing by Hironoshi Motonobu, who was a student of both Gichin and Yoshitaka. One example are the kicks in Heian/Pinan-Yondan that are followed by the elbow strikes. Appearently, Yoshitaka told them as side kicks (yoko-geri) without turning the body whereas Gichin told them as front kicks (mae-geri) after turning the body. When he asked Gichin about the variation, he replied that Motonobu should practice the yoko-geri version at this point in this kata because it was a challenging new technique to master. The mae-geri version was something that he was already quite able to do, as he had already learned it in Heian-Nidan/Pinan-Shodan. So even if the more difficult yoko-geri would kind of break the flow of motion and breathing, it would be beneficial to study it. With more practice this strange feeling of a broken flow would gradually decrease.

Brilliant snippet of info, thanks for posting.

Marc wrote:

In application it really makes no difference. The kata tells me to kick the enemy in the knee/leg. Whether that kick would look more like a side kick or a front kick depends entirely on distance and relative positioning in the particular moment. The opponent probably doesn't care which type of kick dislocated his knee. So why should I. - To be clear, I'm not suggesting that when performing the solo form my technique may be sloppy. Far from it. My aim should be perfection. But any perfect kick will do the trick.

I agree, if the distance is right then either side or front kick does the job, I do find that the way I practise it (maegeri version) allows a person to kick from a much closer and convenient angle. Also, like you say, a front kick is more practical and easier on the hip, although this isn't concern of mine yet... youth is still on my side. :-)

Marc wrote:

Yeah, sadly the Nazis for ever ruined a perfectly positive shape.

Here's the introduction of the Wikipedia article on "Swastika":

The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is a geometrical figure and an ancient religious icon in the cultures of Eurasia, used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indian religions. In the Western world, it was a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck until the 1930s, when it became a feature of Nazi symbolism as an emblem of Aryan race identity and, as a result, was stigmatized by association with ideas of racism and antisemitism. The name swastika comes from Sanskrit (Devanagari:. स्वस्तिक) meaning "conducive to well being or auspicious".

Luckily the Japanese term "manji" doesn't have that fascist connotation and is therefore fine to be used in the context of karate.

Ha, yes they certainly did. Thanks for the link and info, considering it's use and what context it's implemented under I agree it's very fitting in Karate regardless of any connotations associated with it. 

All the best,

JD

JD
JD's picture

Hi Iain,

Iain Abernethy wrote:

The way I do it has the ankle touching the inside of the knee. Neither the ankle nor the foot is behind the knee though. In the above quote, you said you did it “the same way you execute it” but them continued “with the ankle placed behind the knee”. The way I do it does not have the ankle behind the knee. I thought I should clarify.

Yep my apologies, I've written the wrong description, I meant to write that I too put my ankle/foot against the inside or inner side of the knee and not behind it. If I try to put my ankle directly behind the knee of my supporting leg, I find it makes my attacking knee want to flare out, this taking away from my balance in solo form and being an unnecessary movement in application. 

Thanks again and all the best,

JD

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

JD wrote:
I meant to write that I too put my ankle/foot against the inside or inner side of the knee and not behind it.

I’m with you. Thanks for clarifying.

JD wrote:
If I try to put my ankle directly behind the knee of my supporting leg, I find it makes my attacking knee want to flare out, this taking away from my balance in solo form and being an unnecessary movement in application.

My thinking and preferences exactly. As I say, I can see why the “foot touch” can be a useful teaching tool, and hence I’d not say doing do is “wrong”. However, like you, I prefer to keep my kata direct and “combatively clean”.

All the best,

Iain

JD
JD's picture

Hi Iain,

Yeah I agree with the ''foot touch'' being a good teaching aid/tool. I like the term ''combatively clean'', I'll be using that one in class :-) 

Thanks again and best regards,

JD