Why do so many styles resort to Kickboxing

Finlay wrote:

Watching competitive martial arts, sport karate, TKD and even some style of kung fu that i have seen. it seems that ever time people start to spar/fight they end up doing kick boxing ...

... so why do you think that is they way that people like to compete

I would say it is because that the objective determines what will best achieve that objective. Similar forms of competition will therefore invariably lead to similar methods being used. If you change the rules then you’ll see the form of fighting change. However, in one on one duels where striking is the primary method “kickboxing methods” are forced to come to the fore. One final thought is that these methods are not unique to kickboxing so, like many other things, I don’t feel kickboxing can claim unique ownership, but I know what is meant by your observation.

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Finlay wrote:

Watching competitive martial arts, sport karate, TKD and even some style of kung fu that i have seen. it seems that ever time people start to spar/fight they end up doing kick boxing ...

... so why do you think that is they way that people like to compete

I would say it is because that the objective determines what will best achieve that objective. Similar forms of competition will therefore invariably lead to similar methods being used. If you change the rules then you’ll see the form of fighting change. However, in one on one duels where striking is the primary method “kickboxing methods” are forced to come to the fore. One final thought is that these methods are not unique to kickboxing so, like many other things, I don’t feel kickboxing can claim unique ownership, but I know what is meant by your observation.

All the best,

Iain

Absolutely.  I also think this applies once we step out of familiar competitive formats.  A good competitive fighter can and will fight like a 'kickboxer' if given space and is forewarned of trouble in a real situation in a one on one situation.  In closed quarters, with little prior warning, a mind distracted by trying to work out what's going on, how to get out, how to protect someone else etc... you'll probably see a non kickboxing dynamic.  Does that make sense?

I agree with the observation that the reality in which you find yourself will do much to determine how you fight. I'm not sure how many karate "styles" actually exist, so I don't know how to express this in terms of karate. There are 400+ styles of kung fu and they say that 95% of all kung fu is the same, but it is the 5% of difference that gives each style its unique flavor. They also say that when two kung fu masters fight, the winner will be the one with the best chin na (limb tangles, taps and locks, etc). I think this pretty well hold true with karate too. Most karate or tae kwon do styles have very much in common with a little bit of difference that flavors the styles. One thing I really like about Iain's approach to kata is the idea that the techniques of kata have a lot to do with limb control (the chin na type techniques of kung fu). It is the part of the fight that leads up to the application of these techniques that often resembles "kickboxing methods" as one searches for the entry to the other techniques. Or, where sport fighting is concerned, the later techniques are often against the rules and don't get applied.

I hope I haven't oversimplified what I'm trying to say and I hope it is coherent.

Finlay wrote:

Watching competitive martial arts, sport karate, TKD and even some style of kung fu that i have seen. it seems that ever time people start to spar/fight they end up doing kick boxing. simialr scoring areas, a slight variaton on rules usually chancing around if the allow punches to the face or sweeps.

but why do the art go in that way. is it some desire to have 'clean' fighting that i nice to watch? or are arts now in the habit of copying what they see instead of trying new?

Maybe for most this era is coming to an end, but i still see alot of competiion set on simiar rules, even saw taiji people going at it in the saem way once

so why do you think that is they way that people like to compete

In the early days of Full-Contact Karate we were allowed to use, Judo techniques, ridge hands hammer fists etc because the gloves used allowed such techniques, however with the introduction of boxing gloves (a bad mistake IMHO) it bacame more natural to use English boxing (although you were still allowed to throw until that was banned), and it has stuck ever since, even though with MMA gloves you can use the highly effective ridge hand etc.

PS Patrick McCarthy an excellent Karate historian makes a good case for the fist techniques of Karate coming from Siam/Thailand

1)  Simple to learn

2)  Easy to make strong

3)  Easy to retain under pressure (gross rather than complex motor skills)

Gary

Gary Chamberlain wrote:

1)  Simple to learn

2)  Easy to make strong

3)  Easy to retain under pressure (gross rather than complex motor skills)

Gary

I agree with this. If you look at systems that work on fighting and Kumite and sparring, Kata and other "traditional values have gone out the window.

Sanda (Sanshou), Muay Thai, Japanese/American Kickboxing, Freestyle Karate etc all relate to what Gary has specified.

It's fun?

Finlay, no disprespect but I Think your question answers itself.  i.e. you said "Watching COMPETETIVE martial arts, SPORT karate, etc.".  I think Iains' reply nails it:  context is king. So, due to the prevalence of the need for 'safety' you see:  similar risks, first of all, which lead in turn to similar rules, similar equipment, similar arenas and similar tactics.

An example I always use to challenge students preconceptions in this regard is to ask them if they think there would be as much Jujitsu in the UFC if they allowed one or both fighters to carry knives.  Clearly you would see the opposite of 'stirking into the close', at least that's my assertion.

If you think about it, I believe it is the similarity of objective that leads to similarity of tactics you note.  For instance, you can watch an equally 'free' form judo competition (or jujutsu, or Greco, or stickfight or whatever),and you will see a totally different form of fighting.

What is interesting to me is that many cultures have arrived at some derivation of 'kickboxing' as the pinnacle of free mobility striking.  (think boxing, pankration, savate, thai boxing, and he sport fights you mention.  I.e. it is interesting to me that so many DIFFERENT cultures have all come up with the same thing.  Kinda like other core human concepts like "cooking things in grease".  i.e. you can say with some generalization that 'Every culture has that'.

Added to all of this is the ideas from Gary and Tau that such tactics ARE relatively easy to learn, generally effective, physically challenging to master, and fun, too.

After posting the question i went away to think about it some more I agree wiht most that was said and i find it very interestng that many countries independantly developed very similar fighting styles. I think that it is easy to do, and one thing i would like to add is that is is also easy to teach. in many school that i have seen the student are guided in the mechanica of throwing a punch or kick and then let in to sparring, depending on the school the instuction could be next to nothing, a sort of lets see how you go, or a good technical approch covering feinting, ring craft etc.