Why do you have to belong to a style

That's a good question Dave so I will try to answer from my own perspective.

Firstly, i would say that we are very fortunate in Goju Ryu as it is a very large syllabus from weaponry to grappling and everything in between. That means that even within the style you will get specialists - so one instructor/club may be really into their grappling, while another may hardly touch it and prefer to place emphasis on perfection of kata. A taller fighter may chose to keep the sparring standing, while a shorter stockier one may try to take the fight to the floor. In a similar vein, you will find Goju clubs competing in a wide variety of competition formats from semi contact to the Cage - I myself have competed semi-contact, full-contact, points, continuous, striking only/no grappling, grappling only/no striking, and NHB (as an aside, guess where I picked up the most injuries? another thread perhaps...).

This diversity is to me, the real strength of Goju. You can walk into Goju clubs around the world and find vastly different training emphasis but what binds us is the kata and the ethos of the style.

The style dictates that we structure our training in a go to ju fashion - i.e. we start hard (go) and gradually layer on the softer side of things (ju). A system like Aikido for example starts the students with Ju and pretty much stays there. So, no matter what the emphasis of the individual club or instructor, there is a basis training philosophy to adhere to.

Next, the kata lays out the order in which we train our students in that we teach them hardline attack and smash first (Gelkisai Dai Ichi), followed by more subtle positioning (Gekisai Dai Ni), then we move the fight closer into grabbing range and work on escapes from all manner of grabs and holds (Saifa), then we work the grappling (Seiunchin) once all the other elements are in place. So again, regardless of individual preferences, we will always be a primarily striking art with a grappling backup.

The style for me dictates the order of progression and while I don't believe it is the only way by any means, it is the way I know and it has proven itself many times over so I have faith in it.

I watch some of the classes near me and it's clear that the lack of structure is a problem (I've spoken with the instructors about this too). Sometimes they will hit pads, sometimes do guns, sometimes armlocks etc. but it appears to be done depending on the mood of the teacher.  They practice tactics but the style appears to lack an overall strategy.

It is this overall strategy that has kept me within the Goju framework. It is not, nor ever has been, a collection of  say 8 kicks, 4 armlocks, 12 punches etc. Goju is and approach to combat and a training philosophy and that is why it has been important for me to remain within its structure, and of course, guide my own students along the same path.

I think it's tribal.

Most people want to belong to something beyond their arms length, be it style, lodge, religion or even a gang of football hooligans.

I'm like Gavin.  Enshin allows a fair bit of personal expression by the instructors.  The Germans are very technical, the Poles are good strikers, the Brits want to be good at both etc etc.

So I think belonging can be a great thing, so long as you keep switched on and remember the most important people in your style are the ones you sweat with week in, week out.

Gary

My personal belief is that we as humans are social beings.  We want to belong to something bigger than ourselves, and I agree w Gary, that it can be anything from ryu's to religion.  Its human nature to want to feel like whatever it is that we are a part of is valuable and unique.  In addition to martial arts, I have studied religion for quite some time, and many of the same issues that arise in dojo's do in churches/mosques/temples, etc.  Sensei's have a lot in common with pastor's, rabbi's, priests, etc. People tend to like to claim their religion, ryu, philosophy is "The Way."  and focus on why their differences make them superior to others. 

One thing I like about this forum is that people tend to be open minded and like to learn from each other:  realizing despite the myriad of styles, theres a certain universal theme that we can all learn from. 

Why do you have to belong to a style

For the awnser is, you don't. But you may wish to................

I very much am part of a traditional Okinawan Ryu, with Lineage and a strong traditon of how 'we' do it, 'why' we do it etc etc. I like the history and cultural elements and am very happy.

Many people of course will gauge you on what your qualified in, and if that isn't obvious or recognised then it's an issue - and many times they are right to be concerned, but not always for sure.

This is to do with our karate history, how it was bought here, how it developed - and of course the media has alot to do with it, think of all the Kung Fu movies that feature 'style' vs 'style' type plots, think of all the 'style' marketing that goes on by organisations. This is a relaity and for sure Joe Public is going to be led by this type of information.

Personally, I like 'styles' it gives a framework of reference, and drilling down a structure of training that shows different methods to achieve the same, or clearly independant goals. For example I feel, strongly that Shorin Ryu has a different strategy and trianing approach to Goju Ryu - but the further you train those differences become much smaller - I do not support the 'all karate is the same' type model, it just does not make sense to me. (and it would seem to the early masters who often spoke of the 2 main styles theory). Im speaking generally here, there are always exceptions.

Thanks for the replies

I understand that  my black  belt when I finaly get there won't be recognised, but still do not understand why it would be an issue.Surely it would only be an issue if I decided to join one of the bigger styles. 

This is what has thrown me regarding Karate in that when I first started I always thought that all Karate was the same.

Hi Dave,

Dave Moore wrote:

I understand that my black belt when I finally get there won't be recognised, but still do not understand why it would be an issue. Surely it would only be an issue if I decided to join one of the bigger styles.

All grades are internal markers within a given group and should be viewed as such. You could have a guy who is a 3rddan in Shotokan, but if he were to take up Goju Ryu they would not recognise him as a 3rddan in Goju. Indeed, the 3rddan in Shotokan may not be recognised as such by other Shotokan groups.

Whatever style you do and whatever group you belong to your grade will have limited recognition. That’s a universal fact no matter what path you take through karate.

I therefore would not see belonging to a “style” as making your grade “legitimate”, because all grades are internal marker of progress only. No matter where you get your grade from and no matter which body rubber stamps it, it will not have limited recognition.

The key thing is to concentrate on improving skills within a group whose training ethos is something that resonates with you. This podcast may be of interest as it coves these issues:

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/content/black-belt-and-grading-system

Dave Moore wrote:

This is what has thrown me regarding Karate in that when I first started I always thought that all Karate was the same.

I think it was Gavin Mulholland who once likened the term “karate” to “field sports” (please correct me if I’m wrong Gavin) in that is covers a whole hosts of differing activities. So although karate maybe thought to be one thing, it is in reality a whole host of things. That’s a good thing too I think because there are elements of karate that fascinate me, and there are other elements in which I have less interest. I’m sure it’s the same for everyone else. It therefore means that karate is diverse and living as opposed to being narrowly defined and restricted. One of the consequences of that healthy diversity is no common grading structure and I feel that’s a price worth paying.

All the best,

Iain

That's right Iain. I was trying to make the point that 'karate' as such does not really exist and is rather an umbrella term covering, as you say, a whole host of different activities.

The thing I would say to you is who do you want recognition from? Ultimately you will be judged on your abilities and not on your certificates.

A couple of years back Iain and I taught a seminar together. We had spoken on the phone but never met. I knew that Iain's roots were Wado but that he had split somewhat from the mainstream. When he started teaching I recognised him for what he was - a highly knowledgeable and experienced karateka. To my mind, that is the only recognition that really counts.

Of course whether he wants or cares about my recognition is another matter but is still an important point and goes back to my first sentence in this post - who do you want recognition from?

Concentrate on building your knowledge and skills and the right people will 'recognise' you regardless of style or association.

Do you have to belong to a particular style?

It's an interesting question, and the replies above have been equally interesting.  To a certain extent they have made me ponder the question in a sightly different light: do you have to belong to a particular association?

To me it comes down to commerce and psychology.  

When we look for a class we gain a sense of security in numbers.  The number of students in a class reassures us. They have chosen this class and stayed, ergo it must be good.  In similar vein if the class is practising something that is well known, it can be assessed, quantified, labelled - and that makes us feel comfortable.  We like market brands - we feel secure with our Heinz, Helmans, Coca Cola, Pepsi, Persil etc... Styles and associations fill this niche.  This corporate identity in Karate has been one of the great strengths of its Japanese led expansion across the globe. 

Grades of course are intertwined with this.  Grades are merely markers within associations.  They don't mark skill or knowledge per se - they mark longevity and the passing of exams.  They also mark status and power within associations.  By not belonging to a style you do not progress in grades.  Paradoxically this may be an advantage since, providing you have the right mindset, being free of the constraints of a style/association you may make greater personal progress in your studies.  On the con side, without that higher grade, you may lose out commercially to rivals (who have stuck with a style and association) with less knowledge but higher grades - for given the choice the public will go for the 'senior' man.

Gavin Mulholland wrote:

That's right Iain. I was trying to make the point that 'karate' as such does not really exist and is rather an umbrella term covering, as you say, a whole host of different activities.

I’m pleased I remembered that right and have been crediting it correctly.

Gavin Mulholland wrote:

The thing I would say to you is who do you want recognition from? Ultimately you will be judged on your abilities and not on your certificates.

I agree with that and I think that’s probably even truer than it was even 10 years or so ago. It is one of the positives that MMA has bequeathed the martial arts world I feel. It has made clear that people can be great at what they do without having a certificate to recognise that skill.

Gavin Mulholland wrote:

Of course whether he wants or cares about my recognition is another matter but is still an important point and goes back to my first sentence in this post - who do you want recognition from?

I’ll take any positive remarks I can get! :-) Thanks Gavin! (As an aside I mentioned that seminar in a recent article and used a photo of you in it: http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/my-stance-stances)

As regards grades, in my case I’ve never trained under people that I did not hold in high regard. When they graded me it was more to do with the fact that people I respect, and whose judgment I hold in high-esteem, recognised my abilities and progress. It was therefore the recognition by the individual that mattered to me more that the grade itself or the certification from the larger group.

Away from grades, I would also say that personal recognition of the individual, their talents and their character are more meaningful that rank. Some of the martial artists I really admire are Geoff Thompson, Peter Consterdine, Doug James, Kris Wilder, Lawrence Kane, Marc MacYoung, Gary Chamberlain, Gavin Mulholland, Jamie Clubb, Mike Liptrot, etc. Not a single one of them impressed me with their rank, but with their work, their abilities as teachers and practitioners, and the way they are as people.  

Sadly there is no solid demonstrable link between rank and ability and character (although we are often told there is). I’ve met many high grades who are either lacking in talent or who are people who have so many unresolved issues that they are no fun at all to be around.

Gavin Mulholland wrote:

Concentrate on building your knowledge and skills and the right people will 'recognise' you regardless of style or association.

Sound advice. And those who don’t recognise your ability solely on the basis that you don’t belong to the “right group” are not people whose recognition you should care about.

All the best,

Iain

Experience without qualification makes life unnecessarily complex.

this might seem off topic but stick with it. Consider the following;

i have taught PE in inner city schools for twenty years. This has included every activity from boxing to yoga - I am highly experienced in teaching all physical movement.

I am extremely experienced in talent development and all training methods - I know how to make you improve.

I am still fit enough to do the occasional triathlon - i might be greying but i've still got some of it

An unfortunate part of the job has included conflict management. (believe me stone throwers are more dangerous than knife wielders) - i have practical experience of the psychology of violence

i know all the shotokan kata to basai and practice applied bunkai - wow ive brought it back to martial arts.

i dont hold any formal karate grade - i have no 'recognised' qualification 

Despite my 'experience' I hope you would refuse to formally train with me as any permanent injury you might sustain would not be covered by non existent insurance

my message as a professional physical educator is get a qualification, as long as you can get insurance from that qualification then you will be 'recognised' where it matters. After that you will be a peer of the higher grades and you can learn whose recognition is worth worrying about and whose isn't.

p.s. please dont read the above as kids are evil, they are not but thats a different forum...

Hi Mosul,

mosul wrote:

Despite my 'experience' I hope you would refuse to formally train with me as any permanent injury you might sustain would not be covered by non existent insurance.

I get the sentiment but having a dan grade does not mean someone is a competent teacher or that they have professional indemnity insurance in place. There are widely recognised coaching qualifications, widely recognised first aid courses, insurance for “sports” coaches etc, but dan grades are a different case all together. They are internal markers within a given group and it would be a big mistake for a student to train with someone on the basis of their dan grade alone.

You could have a “recognised” 10th dan that comes from a disreputable group, who has no teaching skills, whose training methods are unnecessarily dangerous, who has no first aid training, and no insurance. However you could also have a guy who trains in with a group that does not issue grades, who is technically good at what they do, who is a qualified coach, who has recognised first aid training and who has insurance.  Personally, I’d want to train with the second guy.

So I agree that qualifications and insurance are very important for those teaching the martial arts, but I don’t necessarily feel a dan grade is important in the same way.

mosul wrote:

my message as a professional physical educator is get a qualification, as long as you can get insurance from that qualification then you will be 'recognised' where it matters.

These days insurance companies don’t tend to ask what dan grade a person has (because they are fully aware that there is no set standard for dan grades) and it is more to do with their coaching qualifications (which are a far better indicator that they can teach safely and competently), risk assessments, first aid qualifications, child protection policies, etc. Those renting out premises also tend to ask for insurance, risk assessments, etc as opposed to dan grade certificates for the same reason.

As I say, I get the sentiment, but would suggest that a dan grade is not vital and should not be sought for its own sake. After all, many boxing coaches, wrestling coaches, MMA coaches, RBSD coaches, etc all teach safely and competently without having dan grades.

All the best,

Iain

Hi

I agree with Iain and Mosul on this.  I think we also had a discussion thread on this topic in the old forum?  Despite having formal QTS in secondary education I've made sure that recently I've gained more than a few coaching qualifications in the adult learning sector to indicate specialised subject knowledge and CPD (continuing professional development).  I've even recently been working as an teaching assessor on PTLLS/CTLLS courses in First Aid at Work - partly to improve my own knowledge (of subject matter and of teaching tricks) but also in part as evidence of high level professional work in the adult learning sector.

Recently I changed insurance provider, and I not only listed generic things I do (Shotokan Karate, Aodenkou Jitsu, Heian Flow System) but broke down DART into its composite parts as follows to ensure I got the cover I wanted:  The use of force and the law briefings (plus associated briefings relating to health and safety); Training in the psychological, physical and legal aspects of Personal Safety; Conflict Management Risk Assessment and Training; Non Physical Intervention Training; Physical Intervention, Holding and Restraint and Handcuffing (including full contact force on force drills and simulations); Breakaway Methods (including full contact force on force simulations); Self Defence/Protection Drills and Tactics (including full contact force on force simulations); Weapons defences (guns, knives, bats, batons/truncheons, and  improvised environmental weapons (eg chairs) (including full contact force on force simulations); Stress Inoculation in high pressure event simulations (including full contact force on force drills and simulations); Technique training against focus pads, thai pads, hanging bags, freestanding bags (Bytonic Bobs), impact shields and similar equipment; Rolls and break-falling techniques; Warm up, Warm down, and stretching exercises.  

I didn't want to teach something and then find out to my (and the student's detriment) that I was not covered!  I know this may seem off topic, but actually I think it is quite relevant for those people who are in a style and association and get their 'cover' from that association - do you know what you are covered for?  If you teach something 'extra' that is off syllabus - are you covered?  If you have the required Dan grade and in house coaching qualification with your style/association you can coach their stuff, but if you want a bit of leeway in what you teach I'd strongly suggest you get a formal external qualification that is recognised by another provider and fork out the negligible bit of money to take out a second policy to cover you and your students for the other activities!