Wrist Grabs

Black Tiger wrote:

The Only thing I can point it towards in Martial Arts ethos is from the samurai and someone grabing the wrists to prevent the samurai drawing his sword etc.

The only time anyone ever grabbed my wrist I butted him in the face.  Worked a treat.  Do we really need 50 technical and complex ways to reverse them?

Each to their own

Gary

Black Tiger wrote:

I've never been grabbed by my wrist in all my living days by anyone other that my Parents/Grandparents or teachers and Police officers etc.

I wonder why other styles teach wrist grabs?

Why do they do it and has anyone else ever been grabbed by the wrist by a bully, or not nice person or mugger in their life experience?

I can only speak for my style here. But the reason we use wrist grabs is that our fighting methods begin at pre-emption and gradually we get closer to the attacker learning how to use each different range to our advantage.

When I get to grappling range, I tend to like to poke people in the eyes and throat. This often aids the winning of the fight as it puts me back in charge, however it is possible for the attacker to grab my wrists to stop me poking/grabbing them. At that point my wrist grab techniques are used.

If I am using a wrist grab defence in a real fight, then my awareness has either been low and being grabbed, or things have gone really wrong and I have ended up in close range, fighting the attacker from the back foot.

An Interesting thing for women, is that they are more likely to be grabbed in general, then punched, if confronted by a male attacker

Black Tiger wrote:

I wonder why other styles teach wrist grabs?

Can’t speak for all styles, but we do them in case someone grabs your wrist

Black Tiger wrote:

Why do they do it and has anyone else ever been grabbed by the wrist by a bully, or not nice person or mugger in their life experience?

Yes. Lots of times. If a person is trying to charm or burst their way past your “fence” they may grab a wrist. If you stick your thumb in their eyes or grab their throat, they may well get very firm grip on your wrist as they try to remove the offending appendage. Seize someone’s groin and they may well try to take a VERY firm grip on your wrist to stop you moving your hand (and the things in your hand) about. In grappling it is common enough to grab the wrist to move the arm to get a better grip (i.e. your standard arm drag), set up a lock, or initiate a throw. There are loads of other perfectly valid reasons why your wrist could be seized in conflict. Being able to free your arm to strike, get a better grip, or flee are skills that should be included in training.

The problem is not the techniques themselves, but rather that they are presented in the wrong context i.e. bad buy walks up to attack you, grabs your wrist for no apparent purpose, having got the grip does nothing with it, and then just stands there. I think you’d be correct in saying that particular scenario is highly improbably. However, knowing how to free your limbs is a vial skill when put in the correct combative context.

All the best,

Iain

As Leigh points out it is a relatively common assault on women.

Apart from that there is  value in terms of weapons retention and indeed in weapon control - for example, understanding how to escape from grabs affords you better understanding when it is you hoping to control someone else's weapon bearing limb . You talk about grabbing wrists to prevent drawing a sword and while of course that is not relevant, one of the things you look for when someone approaches the door of a pub or club (if you're working), is that little clip that folding knives like Spydercos have, If when you are talking to them their hand goes near that you either have to check that hand or knock them out, and as although preemptive striking undoubtedly works, it is not always apropriate, so again an understanding of wrist control is, to my mind at least, essential.

Although it didn't happen often, and perhaps my awareness was low, and usually things had gone wrong, I have had my arms grabbed while working on the door - usually girlfriends of someone you are dealing with so there is no need to hurt them, but you do need them off you quickly.

Finally, you do see it a lot in the cage, where one fighter is attempting to control another's hands.  Again freeing you own hands is something you want to do quickly.

Now  I am aware that my examples are taken from scenarios that are arguably not 'self-defence' per se, but they sure feel like they are when you're in them.

It may not be a primary attack but ignoring it would seem somewhat remiss to me.

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Black Tiger wrote:

I wonder why other styles teach wrist grabs?

Can’t speak for all styles, but we do them in case someone grabs your wrist

Black Tiger wrote:

Why do they do it and has anyone else ever been grabbed by the wrist by a bully, or not nice person or mugger in their life experience?

The problem is not the techniques themselves, but rather that they are presented in the wrong context i.e. bad buy walks up to attack you, grabs your wrist for no apparent purpose, having got the grip does nothing with it, and then just stands there. I think you’d be correct in saying that particular scenario is highly improbably. However, knowing how to free your limbs is a vial skill when put in the correct combative context.

All the best,

Iain

I really have to rethink this and look at it at a different angle, as Iain states above, I think is where I concieved the thought that they didn't work in realistic situations. I remember my Tang Soo Do days where we had to learn 30 "Wrist Grips" and 20 "Self Defence Combinations" where our "Attacker" just stood there and let you do whatever to them. And the Kata was just a form to get you through the grade.

I can see so many "Wrist Releases" in the kata that I practice and in the ones that I don't for example the Pinans have Wrist releases, so does Naihanchi and Bassai, and Niseishi to a point. I also see Chil Sing Ee Ro Hyung to have wrist releases too. Even in my Jissen based Katas I see releases from Wrist Grips but these are more realistic in "Real Time" not as someone just walking upto you and grabbing your wrists.

I forget from where but I picked up along the way that (think simple self defence scenario) you are really threatened, caught by surprise that a humans natural, last ditch responce is to grab for the throat, gouge the eyes or the groin (dependant on positon) to take the bad guy out,

When you do that to someone with gusto they tend to try and peel your hands off (keep in mind striking may have already happened etc etc), this is one place where your wrist/arm grab techniques come to life.

As already mentioned, when you are being restrained or restraining someone, when you are going for a weapon, or they are are all valid and real situations where wrist/arm control become significant.

As Iain has said the context of the training is the significant, and I would like to add to that the ferocity of being grabbed or grabbing is also important.

Here's a couple of drills we use to get this going -

1. attacker grabs your wrist/arm anyway they want, left hand, right hand, both hands - get them off

2. attacker grabs you one handed wrist/arm, then smacks you in the head with the free hand - immediatly, don't get hit and get them off (the head gear is good on this one)

3. attacker grabs your wrist/arm anyway they want, move your feet/body - then release the arms

4. attacker grabs your wrist/arm anyway they want, strike them in the 'core' with the spare hand, kick them in the leg/groin or butt them, then move body to release

Just a starting point, to write down how the drills develops would take forever, when we do these I tend to 'dynamically' build the scenario and rules of the drill to allow staggered progression, but keeping each defence principle in place.

It's an amazingly difficult thing to teach people who have 'done' martial arts before, often!

Black Tiger wrote:

I really have to rethink this and look at it at a different angle, as Iain states above, I think is where I conceived the thought that they didn't work in realistic situations.

Maybe, but I think your initial post was made in response to seeing the “grab and stand there” attacker being presented as realistic. I think all who have posted so far would agree with you that it’s not the highly probable attack most self-defence course and books present it as.

As usual, you can’t divorce a technique for the context in which it operates. It’s not the technique alone that is practical or impractical; you can only make that judgment when you define the context too.

Already some very interesting takes on this issue that have got me thinking too.

All the best,

Iain

We work wrist grabs all the time as part of our clinch program. Plus, the wrists are kind-of a fundamental grabbing point. Its a natural hand-hold. Again it all falls back to context....(perfectly good techniques, can be presented in the wrong context and training methods, and seem like nothing more than goofy-nonsense. The plus side is that good training methods will always be the filter for things that work vs thing that don't.)

As when you get into grabbing and grappling range it happens. What we are looking at is either a brief control to secure other parts of the arm (as in what Iain pointed out with an arm drag, underhook, overhook, or whatever). Or we are looking at controlling the arm from a grabbing attack. When your opponent grabs any part of you, for any reason, during a part of your response (even if your primary response is striking), they have given you an opportunity for further control, why let it go to waste? the wrists are usually the closest part of the arm to you, so start there and work your way up the arm to the body. 

All these things are in place, every time you throw or takedown or whatever. You need to grab first- so the wrist grabs become the very first point of contact in that procedure of getting what you want. If you watch Hockey fights  (the Canadian in me really comes out here, lol), you can see the wrist/arm grabs to stop punches, and facilitate punching in close (until they work into the body, then you see one arm holds- not grabs, and punching). 

So for me they are applicable to situations, and are necessary to work in training. After all it is all part of the art....

I think that the biggest problem is not taking the training of wrist grab defences/ counters past the absolute most basic stage of learning the techniques and applying them on compliant partners. Without the opponent offering some kind of resistance and more importantly actually trying to DO something with the grab (usually moving on to a more useful hold or striking) students cannot learn how wrist grabs fit in to the overall framework of combat.

Of course the initial learning stage is essential and trying to learn the basics against a fully resisting opponent trying to hit you is not a very efficient way to train.

The other important thing in my opinion is that training focus not only on wrist grabs but also on sleeve, forearm, bicep and all other possible grabs and controls so students learn to apply the same principles and techniques against different attacks.

I would suggest that wrist grabs are a predictive response to an applied technique and can be drilled and used in this way. As Iain mentioned seizing the groin would lead to the opponent grabbing the wrist and the approiate technique would be applied.

I would  use a wrist or arm grab as a balance breaker to set up a throw, is it not possible that an attacker might be doing the same thing and that your tool box should contain a responce.

Lastly, if we study these techniques for 30yrs and never have to use them has that 30yrs been wasted.  

Interesting thread...from my experience, the 'bad guy' (BG) goes for a grab or strike, the defender (D) gets in a lucky block from the fence position, and the BG ends up with a hold on a wrist as a control or data point...hopefully briefly. I assumed the Kata were designed to enable the students to avoid/release/defend against real situations, so these wrist grabs attakcs are out there since they are in the Kata.....circular I know!

Like I said, bar fights, muggings or BGs grabbing women usually has a brief element of control initially, and a fence is designed to intercept/prevent those attacks ergo the wrist grab. Many assault investigations start with the victim stating "...he grabbed me and then started punching...."

Just my $.02 CDN(same as $US whoo hoo)

Grasshopper Jeff

another thing to consider is law enforcement - BG is grabbed by officer - bad guy try's to get free by grabbing back, officer then locks them up.

Thinking of RyuKyu where it is likely that officers had three main weapons, Bo, Sai and Hands one can easily see that 'grips' were significant, and I guess that hasn't changed much where the crime/situation is low/mid level in seriousness. (clearly firearms have a significant impact on high level situations, but I know little about that).

Also many law enforcement situations involve more than one officer restraining a perk, again grabbing becomes significant, as does pinning down people whilst maintaining control to cuff or reduce the intensity of a group situation.

I personally have simply held a guy by the wrist (with 2 hands) until the police showed up (granted within 2 mins of the whole thing starting), he was a little drunk and simply had no awnser to it, apart from trying to swing at me wildly which hardly connected. He calmed down and left the situation after a talking to by the police. His initial thought was to glass someone else in the pub..............nice.

Granted I proberly had 2-3 stone on the guy in weight, and he was no match for my Matsumura footwork! LOL

I recently asked a similar quesiton as to why train wrist grabs when (I thought) they were not relevent.

It was pointed out, as it has been here, that this often happens to women, something which I had not considered.

The other thing that was pointed out was that the wrist defences we learn are more it teach the principle, rather than specific technique.  Something that was demonstrated to me by one of my instrcutors when he used all of the techniques in our clubs first grading (defences to 4 wrist grabs, 4 strangles & 4 punches) against knife attacks.