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ezzi91
ezzi91's picture
Oi zuki/junzuki

Oi zuki/junzuki (oi zuki on this text from now on) is arguably very important technique in karate as it is kihon technique extracted from katas. But last weeks I have had problems when thinking about applications using kata sequences involving oi zuki. If I think oi zuki as an training method of how to use body or as some lock/throw application, then oi zuki is okay technique. But as an punch, I think that the step is problem as we don't have enough space to execute full step oi zuki. So why does katas have those oi zukis? I don't like the idea of training body mechanics, as I think that katas were made to have realistic applications. So are all oi zukis then some locks/throws/something like that or can they be used as realistic punches? Does anyone else see the problem with that step? Any ideas or is this just some beginners stupid rant? 

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

ezzi91 wrote:

Oi zuki/junzuki (oi zuki on this text from now on) is arguably very important technique in karate as it is kihon technique extracted from katas. But last weeks I have had problems when thinking about applications using kata sequences involving oi zuki. If I think oi zuki as an training method of how to use body or as some lock/throw application, then oi zuki is okay technique. But as an punch, I think that the step is problem as we don't have enough space to execute full step oi zuki. So why does katas have those oi zukis? I don't like the idea of training body mechanics, as I think that katas were made to have realistic applications. So are all oi zukis then some locks/throws/something like that or can they be used as realistic punches? Does anyone else see the problem with that step? Any ideas or is this just some beginners stupid rant? 

Every movement can have multiple uses, of course, but I will say that I often use oi-tsuki as either a punch or a grab, or both. The thing to keep in mind is that I practice Shorin-Ryu, and all of our oi-tsuki are done in shizentai-dachi (aka han-zenkutsu-dachi), so the step is very short. It's much easier to fit in, particularly when used in conjunction with controlling techniques.

ezzi91
ezzi91's picture

And one more thing that bothers me. Why oi zuki, as I find it more natural and considering the distance also perfectly possible to use gyaku zuki instead of oi zuki. I also think that gyaku zuki is stronger punch of these two. So why use weaker and distance-wise harder punch? I understand that you don't have to take so big step, like zenkutsu, but still taking full step instead of just sliding or moving  your front foot bothers me.

Mark B
Mark B's picture

As a striking option imagine making contact halfway through the Oizuki the striking arm makes contact long before it reaches full extension, whilst the body weight travels forward, driving into the target, hence the step through, as opposed to a more fixed Gyakuzuki. But the striking surface doesn't necessarily need to be the fist , the inside is a great option at close quarter, consider the rotation of the striking arm in Oizuki - using that motion presents a great option, with less emphasis on accuracy. It's also important to remember Hikite. Imagine seizing the jacket lapel, or shoulder, and exploding forward into the Oizuki strike. Oizuki also works really well as a method of twisting the opponents posture, particularly as a set up for a takedown, as I demonstrate here, this option taken from Jion

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

ezzi91 wrote:
And one more thing that bothers me. Why oi zuki, as I find it more natural and considering the distance also perfectly possible to use gyaku zuki instead of oi zuki. I also think that gyaku zuki is stronger punch of these two. So why use weaker and distance-wise harder punch? I understand that you don't have to take so big step, like zenkutsu, but still taking full step instead of just sliding or moving  your front foot bothers me.

I think you may mistaking the end of the technique for the beginning? We use the hikite to open up the target, and then we drive from the legs to get bodyweight behind the punch. Contact wll be made "halfway" through the step, such that the remaining part is follow through. We thefore don't step and then hit, but hit as the bodyweight is moving.

Oi-Zuki is a simple and powerful punch. We don't always step, becasue the optimum movement will always be dertmined by the situation. So both Gaku and Oi-Zuki can be the best most powerful punch. We need both so we can make the most powerful and tactically sound motion as dictated by the specific circumstances.

This video expands on this and contains an example of Oi-zuki being used. As you can see, a Gaku - in this instance - would be weaker as it would not project my bodywieght as effectiely.

I hope this helps.

All the best,

Iain

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Mark B wrote:
As a striking option imagine making contact halfway through the Oizuki the striking arm makes contact long before it reaches full extension, whilst the body weight travels forward, driving into the target, hence the step through ...

Yep! That's it. It seems Mark and I were typing at the same time :-)

All the best,

Iain

ezzi91
ezzi91's picture

Yeah, I have seen that Iains video and I like the idea. To be honest, I liked it so much that before I thought it to be good explanation. And there is nothing wrong with it. But last question. Why does people then teach oi zuki so, that the fist starts moving about when leg has gone 3/4 of the full distance. At least that is how Wado-people here teaches it. So the timing is completely different from Iains way of using oi zuki. Or is this just some basic technique vs application thing?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

ezzi91 wrote:
Why does people then teach oi zuki so, that the fist starts moving about when leg has gone 3/4 of the full distance. At least that is how Wado-people here teaches it. So the timing is completely different from Iains way of using oi zuki. Or is this just some basic technique vs application thing?

I'm pleased that was of some use. The reason I put "half way" in quotation marks was because it's not always and exactly half way. The point is that we strike with the hand as the body is moving. I would not say that timing would be "completely diffrent" if we hit later in the step; that would simply be a variation of a common principle that would be applicable if the enemy's head was slightly further way, the enemy tried to pull away from your grip, etc.

In kihon training it is important we have a "datum" to work from so that we develop highly coordinated movement and good muscle control. A style or group sets a fixed version and requests that students match it exactly. Your group has picked a variation where the hand moves later. However, regardless of what variation we pick as the datum for kihon, there need to be acknowledgement that application in the real world will demand adaptation to the exact circumstances (inline with the underlying principles). And this needs practised in bunkai and live drills too.

Funakoshi tells us about this in his 20 precepts: "Allways perform kata exactly, combat is another matter." Naksone's explanation of this notion in Karate-Do Taikan states, "Never be shackled by the rituals of kata, but instead move freely to according to the opponent's strengths and weaknesses". Motobu said, "We must identify the priniples of kata such that we can bend with the winds of adversity". And so on.

Karateka sometimes have a bad habit of assuming the "example" given by kata or kihon is "unalterable perfection". Instead it's an agreed upon example of concept which will be strictly adhered to at first in order to gain muscle control etc, but once that example has been internalised we need to also practise varying it to fit with all the variables of live conflict. Get people to practise Oizuki on the pads at various distances / directions of movement (is the enmy moving toward you or away) and they will need to change the "launch point" in order to get maximum impact.

You can liken it to a maths book explaining a specific type of problem. It will give an example or two to explain the principle - and differing text books will use differing examples; just as various groups / styles do their kihon or kata a little differently - but the principles expained are universal and can be applied to innumerable variations on the problem.  

I hope that helps.

All the best,

Iain

Th0mas
Th0mas's picture

It is difficult to comment on your class without actually seeing it, but this is a common problem when practicing basics in lines. Often the "end" position of oi zuki has the arm and front foot completing the motion at the same time and this is the part of the form that the student focuses on, adjusting their timing accordingly. However the focus should be on the "middle" position, which is the point at which you actually strike your opponent when you momentum and body mass are optimally committed. This misunderstanding of distance is very common in "traditional" karate classes and requires a bit of unlearning if practical application of kata is to be understood.

As alluded to in the early posts, the Oi zuki form is a standard, however it needs to be applied to each given situation. Learn the body mechanics, it is very important for future development, and visualise the correct range when practicing the form class.

Th0mas
Th0mas's picture

Damn! Iain, you posted at the same time as me and did a much better job at explaining it :-)

css1971
css1971's picture

ezzi91 wrote:
So are all oi zukis then some locks/throws/something like that or can they be used as realistic punches? Does anyone else see the problem with that step? Any ideas or is this just some beginners stupid rant?

No, It's pretty normal when you take a look at kata. I don't treat any tsuki as a punch in kata. Tsuki means thrust or lunge, it doesn't mean punch and the shapes in kata are kamae (postures), they're not blocks and punches.

For oi-tsuki : thrust and grab, or grab and thrust have been the most fruitful combinations of movements for me when investigating kata.  A closed fist might represent a punching fist yes, or it might represent a gripping fist holding something.

Think about how fluid free fighting is. How fast punches and kicks are. Is kata really a good way to represent that? Most other striking martial arts simply don't bother with anything more than "combinations". Now take fighting where you have hold of someone, the movement is no longer free and flowing. You're both stuck together by the holds. That's where kata kicks in for me.

DaveB
DaveB's picture

Gichin Funakoshi's Karatedo Nyumon, he states that oizuki and gyakuzuki are the same.

To my mind this can only mean that the lesson of oizuki in kata, is that we must smash the opponent with as much body weight as we can when hitting.

This is a principle: a general rule we can derive from kata that we can embody through different techniques. Such rules are to my mind the things that we are supposed to take from kata into a fight.

It also highlights the kind of flexibility required to make full use of kata and is ffurther evidence of the layering of technique presented through kata movements. Thus in different circumstances an oizuki is an entry for a throw (as in Hiean sandan before the last turn) or a devastating punch (hiean sandan, same place) or an arm bar (hiean sho) or a devastating punch (hiean sho).

Three tips for landing oizuki in it's traditional form: 1. As has been mentioned, don't try to hit at full extension. So.long as your weight is in front of the supporting foot you are good to throw the punch and with any punch max power is achieved at about 2/3 extension. 2. Use a switch step. Slide your front foot to meet your back foot but keep your weight forwards. Before you fall, slide your other foot forward and punch. If you parry while retracting the front foot this can be a good way of pressing with a powerful counter. 3. When stepping, start as your opponent is doing something else and land your front foot behind his front foot. By timing when you launch you minimise the risk of being intercepted. By invading his stance you crowd and confuse him making retreat more likely than response

Marc
Marc's picture

ezzi91 wrote:

Oi zuki [...] is arguably very important technique in karate

Sure, stepping forward thrusting a fist forward while pulling the other hand back to your hip demonstrates two fundamental principles in one easy enough move:

- stepping forward: Put your body weight into your technique.

- thrusting while pulling: Hit while compromising their balance (or at least keeping contact), remember that a hand going back to your hip usually has something in it.

ezzi91 wrote:

But as an punch, I think that the step is problem as we don't have enough space to execute full step oi zuki. So why does katas have those oi zukis?

The litereal meaning of "oi-zuki" might shed some light on this: Oi-zuki (追い突き) means something like "chasing stab" or "pursuing thrust".

So an oi-zuki would be a thrust punch delivered while stepping forward to hit an opponent who is moving away from you - as opposed to a gyaku-zuki with which you hit an opponent who is right in front of you.

Iain's video of the application of the age-uke/gyaku-zuki sequence from Jion kata demonstrates this idea:

Is this the only possible explanation of oi-zuki? Of course not, but it makes sense of the distance you travel when stepping forward. It is worth analysing oi-zuki moves in other katas with this idea in mind (Heian Shodan / Pinan Nidan come to mind).

ezzi91 wrote:

So are all oi zukis then some locks/throws/something like that or can they be used as realistic punches?

Some can be locks/throws/something and others can be punches.

If you think punches, then it is interesting to note that all oi-zuki techniques in katas (as far as I know) are chudan (middle level). That's because you bring your opponent's head down with the preceding move or at least with your pulling hand (hikite). Thus your middle level punch becomes a punch to your opponent's head.

ezzi91 wrote:

Any ideas or is this just some beginners stupid rant?

To me it did not feel like a rant, rather like a valid question. And there are no stupid questions.

All the best

Marc

JWT
JWT's picture

Hi

As others have said, distance should not be an issue. Depending on the preceding technique you may find that one step isn't enough to cover the necessary distance after hitting your partner (asuming your partner has reacted realistically to the hit rather than stood still like a lame duck) or you may be hitting through the target. Alternatively the Oi Tsuki need not be a punch as I illustrate in this video.

All the best.

John Titchen