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Eddie J
Eddie J's picture
Okinawa Kenpo kata training.

I have been taking Okinawa Kenpo for 3 years.  To the level of brown belt. In both open hand and weapons. During this time our training  in open hand karate has been 95% kata training in a dance type scenario. 4% bag work for kicking. 1% self defense training with military style, LE restraining methods. At times the bunkai will be briefly be mentioned.  When ask for more training in the applications of kata  I am told that I am not ready to learn the bunkai.  That his Sensei made them wait until they were 3rd or 4th degree black belts before they could be taught the secrets within the kata.  I have had another high level black belt tell me about the same thing.  That he can not even talk to me about the hidden secrets of the kata.  If he did he would have to kill me.  I find all of the deadly secret stuff a bunch of bull.  To hide the fact that they themself do not know any secrets. I have talk to other students of the same Sensei and was told that he himself did not teach the bunkai to the kata. You would just learn the weapons and open hand kata.  With the promise of learning the secrets later.  But later never came.  As I watch the vidoes on this and other sites I am amazed at how simple and effective a little train can be. But I appear to be stuck in a rut.  Can anyone tell me if they too were taught in this manner.  Am I just to eager for the knowledge and must wait.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Eddie J wrote:
You would just learn the weapons and open hand kata.  With the promise of learning the secrets later.  But later never came.  As I watch the vidoes on this and other sites I am amazed at how simple and effective a little train can be. But I appear to be stuck in a rut.  Can anyone tell me if they too were taught in this manner?  Am I just too eager for the knowledge and must wait.

Hi Eddie,

Personally, I teach bunkai from the very start. People come to karate to learn to defend themselves and to learn functional skills, so I should do my best to fulfil that need. Sure, we don’t want people running before they can walk – so there is a case for ensuring a student has the basics down before charging ahead to the next level – but it does not take long before functional skills can begin to be imparted.

We should be simultaneously learning to apply one set of skills, while using that same set as the foundation for the next set. It’s like building endless extensions to our homes. We lay the foundations, and then build the first floor. We may not use the foundations directly, but the usable bits rely on them. We can also be living in the first floor (i.e. using it) while building upper levels and extensions. The building exists to be used and the measure of its value is how applicable it can be i.e. can we live in it. Martial arts should be the same.

It someone is not being taught directly usable skills within the first month or two, then I would have concerns about the efficiency of that training program. Three years without learning bunkai seems to be difficult to justify to me. So no, I don’t think you are too eager for knowledge. It sounds like you’ve been more than patient.

If it seems like you are going to be left endlessly waiting, then you may want to consider taking the core movement / body awareness skills you will have learnt (which will be valuable and will serve you) to another school or system that will teach you to start making use of that?

We are all here to help.

All the best,

Iain

genkaimade
genkaimade's picture

What Iain said, what Iain said, a million times what Iain said. Just make sure you don't shift over to a group/"style" that will equally bs you. I would suggest something very grappling heavy (Judo, BJJ etc.). Bunkai makes infintely more sense I think if you come from a more grappling-y perspective and with an open mind.

Eddie J
Eddie J's picture

I do come from a grappling background and compete in grappling tournaments along with kumita and weapons tournaments.  The first couple of times that we sparred as a white belt i took my opponent down to the ground and was told this was karate, not MMA and I could go down the street for that.  This was Traditional Karate.   I do see that every move in the kata could result in neatralizing your opponent. We will train with some forms of point kumite before a tournament, and lately another student and I will work offence and defense drills, but still not kata based. More about scoring points. There are only 3 people in the class.  My wife that knows all the required kata is a black belt, another brown belt 33 years old and myself.  So it is not like we need to hide the secret moves because of the kids.

Marc
Marc's picture

Eddie J wrote:

Sensei made them wait until they were 3rd or 4th degree black belts before they could be taught the secrets within the kata.

That certainly seems a little late, in my opinion.

But if your sensei is convinced that before teaching applications it would be necessary to develop an excellent technical foundation then the question would be: How long does it take people in your system to reach that level?

If you could reach 3rd Dan in 1 or 2 years then that's not worse than other systems that might start teaching the interesting stuff at around orange or blue belt level after 1 or 2 years.

Any degree is worth what its worth within the given system. Skill or knowledge is not attached to belt colour. Instead it depends on the kind of training you receive and on the diligence you put into it. A black belt in one system might compare to a green belt in another system and vice versa.

In my organisation the regulations would theoretically allow an absolute minimum 6 years and 10,5 months to reach 3rd Dan. For the average leisure time karateka who trains once or twice a week it usually is more like 15 years (in my organisation).

So belt colour is not the issue. But holding back all kinds of applications - even the not so lethal ones -  for several years seems suspicious.

It would certainly seem absurd to train diligently for 7 to 15 years until you first start to learn about any kata applications.

Eddie J wrote:

I have had another high level black belt tell me about the same thing. That he can not even talk to me about the hidden secrets of the kata. If he did he would have to kill me.

LOL, and how would he do that, if he hasn't learned the deadly secrets yet. devil Sorry, could not resist.

Slightly more seriously: So the code of the inner circle is above the law? That sounds very suspicious.

genkaimade wrote:

What Iain said, what Iain said, a million times what Iain said.

I agree.

Maybe your teacher/system provides you with excellent technical training. If that is the case, be thankful for that. Use it. Even continue training there. But consider trying another club or system if available.

Personally I like introducing beginners to karate with a simple and usable partner drill first (application), then have them practice the move without a partner (kihon). Then when they've learned more than one move with and without a partner the solo forms can be concatenated into a sequence. By adding more applications/moves their first kata emerges.

I like this approach because the beginning student gets something useful to take away from their training from day one. And they learn about the idea of kata as being a mnemonic tool. Because that's how they came to be in the first place: As a way of rembering and structuring stuff that works.

As to the idea of applications encoded in kata that are so lethal that the teacher has to hold them back until they know that their student has a peaceful personality and is worthy of them: I don't buy that. It does not require an inner circle of worthy deciples to reveal that smashing the head, hitting the throat, kicking the groin or breaking the knees are effective techniques. Everyone knows.

It is how you get to do these while avoiding to get injured yourself that is encoded in kata. It is strategy and principles and optimal application of power that you'll find in kata. These things take time to learn, much more time to perfect and internalise them. So again I say, no need to hold them back for several years.

Wastelander
Wastelander's picture

I've definitely heard of that practice, but I am thankful to not have to deal with it, myself--I've been training for nearly 10 years, and won't test for nidan until this summer, so I would still be quite a long time away from learning anything useful, if that were the case!

3 years is, in my opinion, far too long to be working kata without being given any guidance on how to practically apply it. You can develop a good, solid foundation of body mechanics and technique in a much shorter time, and that's all you really need to have before you start learning how to use them. Even then, hiding applications and keeping them secret isn't doing you any favors. We teach applications along with the kata in our dojo, although we tend to tailor the techniques to the students we are teaching, rather than giving them a standard "correct" answer. Sometimes, an application may be a bit too complex for a student, but that doesn't mean we won't show them that application--we just won't focus on having them develop it until they have more skill.

The sad part about this is that Okinawa kenpo has a reputation for actually being a fairly comprehensive system, with a lot of good material connected to the kata. Odo Seikichi, the founder of what is generally called Okinawa kenpo, learned from one of the same teachers as Oyata Seiyu, who had a long history of sharing kata application.

Eddie J
Eddie J's picture

My selves are all full of trophies that I have won in both weapons and open hand kata.  But as I am gleaning from this site and others.  The perfect tournament kata is not the same kata that you use in self defense.  So I am learning more and more how to do it wrong.  I have many times heard it said while training, "that is not how you do it in the bunkai, you just do it what way for tournaments."

MCM180
MCM180's picture

Eddie J wrote:

 More about scoring points. There are only 3 people in the class.  My wife that knows all the required kata is a black belt, another brown belt 33 years old and myself.  So it is not like we need to hide the secret moves because of the kids.

If his purpose is to train you for tournaments, then it sounds like he's doing fine. But if YOUR purpose is to learn application of self-defense, then the two of you might have a mismatch. Also, with only 3 students in the class, he probably feels pressure to keep his students around to protect his income. I realize he may have other classes or another job - but with only 3 students in the advanced class, he probably REALLY doesn't want to lose you. Is that why he promises the "good stuff" in the future that never comes?

MCM

Eddie J
Eddie J's picture

I used the tournaments as a way of getting the kids and wife involved in karate.  Down playing the nastiness of self defence untill they were hooked.  But he knew from the start the at 53 years old I wanted self defence.  But i went alone with everything to set the example for the family.  Thinking all along the this style of train left me with only more question after every class.  Thats when the wait wait wait and wait again started. I know the katas play an important part of karate.  But i thinkthat you need to break down the technique within the kata and work them to thier fullest.  And having kata to remember them by.  We never work any direct technque out of a kata.  I will at home.  breaking down the moves within the kata and make them feel comfortable to apply. Because so many of the moves in the kata are warped from the applications.

Eddie J
Eddie J's picture

Last night in class was interesting.  I ask again when we were going to start bunkai training. And now I was told that I can not learn the bunkai until I can go through the entire kata perfectly. Just like a perfectly done fight with full power in every move. That I believe I do now.  I win first place with my kata. Most of the time.  And if I am not doing the kata right. Why did he promote me through the years to brown belt. 

The kicker is that as we worked on kata last night I would stop and ask him what the bunkai was for this move.  And he would not know.  "I really don't know how you use that move" I am very frustrated with class.  He could not give me an answer on why we go on to another kata before we understand the kata we are working on. "Just trust me and give me time"  I see it as give me more money.  But my wife loves the dance routines.!!!!!!!!!!

Iain; By the way, I did buy your 3 DVD and will get the E Books.  That is my only chance of pulling some knowledge out of my dance class.

dhogsette
dhogsette's picture

This seems like another case of "I'm teaching the way my sensei taught me, and I'm not going to change that pattern." That's a great motto if your sensei taught you well... But also, my sense is that the true martial artists not only takes the gems of what the sensei taught but then makes it his/her own, developing in new and relevant ways. The "good sensei" will encourage his/her students in that direction and won't, in my opinion, create this mystical, arbitrary hierarchy of knowledge acquisition. Rubbish, in my view. Yes, we need to learn in reasonable incremental steps, but that doesn't mean hiding "the good stuff" until you are "good and ready" to receive it.

True traditional karate, in my view, is practical or functional. There are functional reasons for every move we learn and practice. I don't see the point of learning a movement w/out also learning various possible functional applications of those movements. Otherwise, you are just dancing. Application won't magically appear to the practitioner simply by practicing the routines. One must learn principles of analysis, engage examples, develop his/her own applications, and test them live with partners. Thus, in my new school (only a year old now), I teach form AND function together, and my students really appreciate that. 

The DVDs are a great place to start, but you also need to practice the principles live with partners. If your sensei won't allow that and you decide to stay in that dojo, then consider creating your own small bunkai group that meets and trains outside of class (hopefully, the sensei won't mind that). Iain Sensei has written on this idea elsewhere, and I think there may be a podcast about that as well... 

Best,

David 

Jr cook
Jr cook's picture

Eddie,

Sorry to hear about this. I'm a student of Okinawa Kenpo as well. It's possible our ryu are a little different but the katas are most likely very similar. Our club puts a great deal of emphasis on building functional skills from our kata. We are very open to working with visitors so if you ever find yourself near Tennessee I would invite you to stop by.

I just wanted to reiterate the point made by dhogsette in the previous post. Having a regular training partner is essential for applied martial arts study. Even partners with very different or limited backgrounds can be useful. Look beyond just Okinawan Karate practitioners.