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Chris R
Chris R's picture
Karate Punch Shoulder Mechanics

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone would be interested in giving their thoughts/opinion on this topic. I am curious to see if anyone thinks about this in their training, if anyone knows why the differences exist, and maybe any personal opinions on the pros/cons of each or how your own mechanics look when striking. I don't think this is a topic that is very commonly spoken about, but I have been looking into this recently and thought I might make a post about it on here.

During my time spent in the martial arts so far I have been exposed to throwing punches the Karate way as well as the combat sports (Muay Thai/Boxing) way. One of the key differences between these methods of punching is the shoulder mechanics. In Karate punches, the shoulder is often kept "down," like it is for all other basic techniques in kihon and kata. On the other hand, combat sports style punches involve a certain amount of movement of the shoulder. Not only does more rotation and free forward movement occur, but the shoulder can also be raised thereby covering the chin during the punch. This is a very simplified explanation, but hopefully you get the idea.

In terms of how this relates to generating power, I think that the Karate punch is more suited to "driving" the shot into your target, and is a bit more rigid structurally. On the other hand, the combat sports punch is less about "driving", and the shoulder mechanics allow power to be transferred from the ground up, almost as if you are "throwing" your fist at the target. This explanation makes more sense when you look at the follow-through of the different types of punches. Combat sports punches tend to be "thrown" and follow through the target much more freely, whereas Karate punches go through the target, stop at an abrupt point, and then snap back. Difficult to put into words, but hopefully you get the idea.

With all of this in mind, I also believe that one can throw punches with mechanics that are somewhere in-between those two methods. For example, I remember being told by a Karate instructor (somewhat early on in my training) that I could "let the shoulder go a bit" while throwing punches from a fight stance. The end result was somewhere inbetween the two, and might work as an effective compromise in my opinion.

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Chris,

There are lots of “karates”, so I can only speak from the perspective of karate as I have been taught it. In my experience, I don’t recognise the differences you are highlighting.

Having trained alongside boxers and Thai-boxing practitioners I don’t see the mechanics as being any different. Objectives are often different, so the tactical application of the methods can be different, but I’ve never observed those technical differences.

Chris R wrote:
Combat sports punches tend to be "thrown" and follow through the target much more freely, whereas Karate punches go through the target, stop at an abrupt point, and then snap back.

If you think of kata, you see very few strikes snapping back. I also don’t see punches as stopping at an abrupt point and then snapping back, but stopping when the energy has been dissipated (physics stopping the punch, as opposed to the thrower of the punch) and then being recovered.

Chris R wrote:
the shoulder can also be raised thereby covering the chin during the punch. This is a very simplified explanation

That would be a tactical change. Boxers will keep punches and guards tight to avoid the risk of exposing targets while they score points and set up more powerful flurries. They open up when they go for the knock out though. So, the shoulder being raised is a defensive tactic appropriate to the context, as opposed to being anything to do with power generation. In karate I was always taught to keep the shoulders relaxed and aligned (not up or hunched) which I see as being the right way to go when we are not seeking an extended and skilled exchange, but the fastest finish possible in a civilian context.

In karate we are often using the other hand to clear the path and locate the target too, and we are bare fisted. These make a difference too, but outside the scope of this thread.

However, when it comes to the “raw technique” – isolated from a given objective and context – I don’t see any significant difference at that level between the punches of karate and other systems.

All the best,

Iain

Chris R
Chris R's picture

Thank you for your response, it was interesting to read your perspective on this topic.

I agree that there is not a huge difference, but I still think there may be enough difference to be worthy of discussion. I'm not the only person who has brought this up either, I've come across other people who also think there are some differences. Here is an example if you are interested: http://www.wayofleastresistance.net/2008/11/karate-punches-vs-boxing-pun...

Iain Abernethy wrote:

If you think of kata, you see very few strikes snapping back. I also don’t see punches as stopping at an abrupt point and then snapping back, but stopping when the energy has been dissipated (physics stopping the punch, as opposed to the thrower of the punch) and then being recovered.

This is tricky because it depends on perception and what terms are being used. Using the kata example, I still maintain that strikes stop at an abrupt point ... As in they go from point A (the hip) to point B (stopped at full extension). There is no follow-through or deviation in the strike's path. You appear to suggest that the punch either stops abruptly or stops when the energy has been dissipated, but I was under the impression that one does not necessarily exclude the other. I think this is where the whole perception issue comes in, as we might be talking about the same thing but using different terms. I should also mention that my "snapping back" sentence was a poor choice of words, perhaps "coming back" or "recovered" would have been better. The point I was trying to make was that I have observed a clearer definition of the punch going out, stopping, and coming back in Karate punches when compared to a combat sports style punch. However some agree and some disagree with this I think.

Iain Abernethy wrote:

Chris R wrote:
the shoulder can also be raised thereby covering the chin during the punch.

That would be a tactical change. Boxers will keep punches and guards tight to avoid the risk of exposing targets while they score points and set up more powerful flurries. They open up when they go for the knock out though. So, the shoulder being raised is a defensive tactic appropriate to the context, as opposed to being anything to do with power generation.

Raising the shoulder may be a defensive tactic, but that does not mean that it does not impact the overall mechanics or power generation of the punch. When you raise your shoulder, to some extent you are changing the mechanics of the punch, including your alignment and how you use the musculature of your upper body during the punch. The question is: How important is that difference, and does it matter? I'm inclinded to think it does, but based on your response I'm assuming you believe that the difference is negligable?

Iain Abernethy
Iain Abernethy's picture

Hi Chris,

I don’t think there is a universal “karate punch”. That’s going to the issue here because karate, as I have always been taught it, does not have such distinctions. The karate that others have done may, but the karate that I have always done does not. I there can’t personally subscribe to your definitions of a “karate punch”. I don’t see such a marked contrast.

Chris R wrote:
Using the kata example, I still maintain that strikes stop at an abrupt point ... As in they go from point A (the hip) to point B (stopped at full extension). There is no follow-through or deviation in the strike's path.

That is not my experience. My karate does not have the punch stop at full extension, there is loads of follow through, not all start at the hip, and not all strikes are straight.

If you drive a car at full speed into a wall the call will stop, not because the driver applied the brakes, but because all of the force has been dissipated into the wall. Same with the karate punch (my experience of what that is). It is not stopped by the puncher, it is stopped by the target.

We are sure to be talking at crossed purposes here because I don’t share your definition of a “karate punch”. So, from my perspective it’s hard to discuss differences that I have never experianced in the way you describe.  

Others here will have differing perspectives, but for me, what you describe as a karate punch isn’t what I have known to be a karate punch for the last 35 or so years. Therefore, all that I can really contribute to the thread is that for some karateka (folks like me, my teachers and my students) punch differently from how you describe, but we are still karateka.

All the best,

Iain

Mulberry4000
Mulberry4000's picture

i thnk in sports karate the punches are thrown, they are not punches at all but the aim is to score a point, a kind of ticky it  we played as a kid.  As for punching in karate i was taught  to relax shoulders and sit in to the stance as i was punching the pad.

best wishes 

Paul_L
Paul_L's picture

Hello Chris,

I get what you are saying but I wonder if your understanding of striking mechanics differs from mine somewhat.

One thing to remember is that boxing is boxing, muai thai is muai thai, competition karate is competition karate and self defence is something else entirely. I think it is best not to get too caught up in how varous strikes look outwardly in appearance. In a sports context you are not always look to strike with power as there are other objectives such as maintaining distance, point scoring and range finding. In self defence you are looking to end it quickly.

My general rule is to keep the shoulders relaxed. Striking power does not come from the shoulders. Footwork, explosive core rotation, momentum and weight distribution are what develop striking power. Muscular tension in the arms (shoulders) should only occur just before the strike hits and generally you should be driving through the target. I find focus mitts good for training this. I aim to drive my fist through the little target on the pad and into bury it into the back of the pad. Different arts have different ways of developing striking power but I tend to find that the core principles are very similar.