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sanchin_carroll
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Jodan/Age Uke Differences

Hey all!  I'm a karate instructor in Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu and have been studying this particular style since 2000.  One fairly unique aspect of Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu is the manner in which we perform the jodan uke, otherwise known as age uke (upper block).  In Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu, the "blocking" arm is chambered and delivered from the inside of the opposite bent-arm (bottom of fist against biceps), as oppose to many karate styles, which chamber/deliver the arm from the outside of the bent-arm.

Any thoughts on the advantages/disadvantages of this from a practical application perspective?  I've tried to mess around with the applications from the latter method (not used in my style), but obviously, given my habitual training, it feels so unnatural.

Thanks

Jeremiah Hoyt

JWT
JWT's picture

Can you provide a video? The method you are describing (moving the arm from the inside) sounds like the most common method to me.

sanchin_carroll
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Higaonna Sensei demonstrates a Goju Ryu jodan uke at :06 of this video:

The Shotokan instructor in this video demonstrates a clear age uke beginning around :40:

This is a video of Pinan Shodan in Wado Ryu.  At 2:00 a slow version of age uke is demonstrated in the kata:

This Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu practicioner also performs Pinan Shodan and executes the jodan uke at :43 and :46 of the video:

This is a video of a Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu karateka performing Heian Nidan (also known as Pinan Shodan).  This is the only video I could find that demonstrates the different method of executing the jodan uke.  At 1:49 and 1:55 of the video, the technique is in slow motion.

Notice how he/we chamber the fist of the hand used in the secondary movement of the block on the inside of the arm in Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu.  In the other styles above, the fist/arm used in the secondary movement are chambered and thrown from the outside of the arm used in the primary movement.  I hope this provides some clarity of the differences.  

Chikara Andrew
Chikara Andrew's picture

I consider Age Uke to have a number of applications, a block/cover, to apply pressure to limbs and to strike. Your example of crossing the eblow crease from the inside makes alot of sense if you consider it as a strike. Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan) shows this better where you have three down the centre. The first one blocks/covers the attackers arm, keeping control of their arm your second Age Uke travels up the top of their arm to deliver a forearm strike to the neck/jaw.

Dale Parker
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Soke Hayashi did both versions of the Jodan Age Uke, and Chudan Age Uke.  It depended on the application of the kata or technique.  I think most of his students eventually went to just using the inside version, as the advanced kata such as Nipaipo, Heiku, Paiku use the inside version.

As to why, he once explained it was better for capturing the wrist in Karate, and in Kobudo for certain weapons like the Sai it was just more practical.

JWT
JWT's picture

That's fascinating. I come from a Shotokan lineage and still teach Shotokan and yet I in kihon I nearly always raise my age uke arm to the inside of the retracting hand. Looking at the descriptive text for Heian Shodan in my older kyohan Funakoshi clearly describes the age uke as raising to the outside of the retracting arm, something that feels very aien to me in on the spot kihon hip rotational practice. Moving it to the outside feels unnatural to me after so many years of repetition. :) I'll keep it on the inside in that context. That said, in kata, the slightly different angles created by the stepping forward action (compared to static) mean that in Heian Shodan, Jion, Jitte etc I always raise my arm to the outside.

DaveB
DaveB's picture

I have always blocked from the outside, but I might reconsider.

The inside chamber suggest to me more of a rolling/replacing action, as though the extended preparation hand is pulling something down and the "block" shoots over the top to strike. Chambering inside forces the arm to fold more tightly making the outwards motion more explosive.

The block outside can work in a similar way, but the preparation has to clear obstacles to the side and I think it is generally more awkward.

Nimrod Nir
Nimrod Nir's picture

This is indeed an interesting topic. It also came to my mind in the last couple of months. Sorry to pop up this old thread, but I feel that the issue was not fully discussed previously. 

The way I originally learned to do the Age Uke is apparently the more common way, i.e. from the outside (as demonstrated in most of the videos above). 

However, as my practical application thinking and viewpoint steadily grew, I started thinking about it differently.

sanchin_carroll wrote:
Any thoughts on the advantages/disadvantages of this from a practical application perspective? 

As always, I guess that the best answer is: "it depends". In this case, I think it depends on the particular application of the Age Uke.

As a general rule though, it does seem to me more logical to do it from the inside rather than from the outside, similar to the way the chamber of the Shuto Uke is generally performed (in Shuto Uke the chambering arm is over the "blocking" arm rather than under, but I feel that the principle is similar in both cases). 

Any additional thoughts or insights?

PASmith
PASmith's picture

The chamber for a rising/high block in ITF TKD is done with the "blocking" arm on the inside (back of hand to back of hand). I then did Shidokan Karate where the chamber is done in a "cross" fashion with the blocking arm chambered on the outside. I'm back doing TKD and my chamber position now is a bit pot-luck. Sometimes it's ITF and sometimes it's karate.

The main bunkai application of rising block these days seems to be from a lapel grab where you control the grabbing hand, smash into their forearm with the "chamber" and then forearm smash them in the head/neck. This application is most like the "outside" chamber position due to the way the hands interact with the grabbing limb. The inside chamber doesn't suit this application as easily.

Nimrod Nir
Nimrod Nir's picture

PASmith wrote:
The main bunkai application of rising block these days seems to be from a lapel grab where you control the grabbing hand, smash into their forearm with the "chamber" and then forearm smash them in the head/neck. This application is most like the "outside" chamber position due to the way the hands interact with the grabbing limb. The inside chamber doesn't suit this application as easily.

Thank you for your aditional input. I agree that this is the most common bunkai i see these days, and indeed that it is more suitable for this applications to do the outside chamber.

According to this logic, this also seems to be the case for Uchi Uke (from inside to outside) - The most common (I prefer this term rather than "main") application of inside block these days also seems to be from a lapel grab where you control the grabbing hand, smash into their forearm with the "chamber" and then strike them in the chin/head (pretty similar to the Age Uke most common application). Would you say that the chambering for Uchi Uke should also be from the outside? (I have seen both ways performed).

PASmith
PASmith's picture

Hmmm...I've only ever seen that block chambered on the outside. More under the armpit (in Karate) and as a cross chamber (forearm to forearm with the back of the hands facing you) in TKD. Although in TKD we also have a block very similar to that that impacts with the opposite side of the arm (the hammer fist side) that chambers on the inside!

Honestly I think the exact stylistic details are often the least important parts of a technique (that have been elevated in importance due to a quest for stylistic identity). So long as the main "essence" of the move is there I think multiple tweaks and changes can be incoporated (like chambering inside or outside) without it being compromised.

Nimrod Nir
Nimrod Nir's picture

PASmith wrote:
Honestly I think the exact stylistic details are often the least important parts of a technique (that have been elevated in importance due to a quest for stylistic identity). So long as the main "essence" of the move is there I think multiple tweaks and changes can be incoporated (like chambering inside or outside) without it being compromised.

I think this is a very good summary to this discussion. To paraphrase, it is similar to different kata variations between styles - the stylistic details are often not so important so long as the main principle of the move is clear. Therefore, multiple tweaks and changes can be presented without the principle being compromised. 

Thanks for helping me come to this conclusion.